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MattJ
Straight


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:14 pm
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OK, second post,

This relates to unusual play on the internet. The events described happened about a month ago, but they have been bugging me for ages and now is as good a time as any to get some opinions.

I reached the final table of a pokerstars $50 NLH tourney. With 6 players left I was quite a short stack when an unusual hand turned up when the two chip leaders became involved with each other. Blinds were around 2000/4000ish and the two chip leaders had approx 100k each. Player A raised the pot pre-flop and Player B called from the BB. The flop arrived 2h A 6 rainbow. Player B raises all in and Player A calls (virtually all in, I think he had about 2.5k left over) with Jh 8h??? Player B reveals A6. This is the most bizarre call I have seen for ages and was entirely out of character for Player A. I had been on player As table for over an hour and he had played very tight selective poker. He seems very capable and his username lies in the top 30 in the yearly tournament leaderboard, so one has to assume he plays enough to have some idea what he was doing. The turn and river showed two hearts and Player A went on to win the tourney. However, what exactly was the logical reason for his call with absolutely nothing? I put it down to him hitting the wrong button and getting really lucky. I wasnt bothered, it shifted me up the money by an unexpected place and I eventually managed 3rd.

I thought no more of it until three days later when I reached the final table of another tourney, this time a $30 NLH and found Player A positioned immediately to my left. Again he had a hefty stack and again, this time with seven players left, he made a huge call for all his chips with absolutely nothing and hit a runner runner straight. This time he held Q10o, raised the pot pre flop and got 1 caller (not Player B above who was not present). The caller went all in on a A 9 5 flop, holding Ace-rag and the turn and river came KJ. This was another particularly odd CALL all in with nothing, again at a stage where Player A could pass and still be a comfortable third place. Eventually Player A came 2nd. I still cannot think of any mitigating circumstances for making either call. Perhaps early in a tournament from a player who does not know what he is doing, fair enough, but this is from a clearly experienced player at the final table of the tourney.

This behaviour is bizarre at best. But is it suspicious? I gained from both situations, and neither of them really had a huge effect on me so Im not being a sore loser at all. Neither am I alleging anything dodgy was going on, but it has occurred to me as rather odd play. I am simply wondering if there are any explanations for these calls I am overlooking. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Are the calls suspicious? Can anyone offer an explanation?

MattJ

ps. i am NOT one of those who thinks internet poker is rigged etc etc and please do not read this post as being that sort of rant. [i have just reread the post and it might be misinterpreted].

pps. if it is all indeed rigged, long may it remain so because i am more than satisfied with the results they are giving me Smile
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ironside
Full House


Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1245

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:27 pm
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certain players online once they raise preflop will not fold anything even if they missed the board

--Previous Message--

: OK, second post,
:
: This relates to unusual play on the internet. The events described happened
: about a month ago, but they have been bugging me for ages and now is as good a
: time as any to get some opinions.
:
: I reached the final table of a pokerstars $50 NLH tourney. With 6 players
: left I was quite a short stack when an unusual hand turned up when the two chip
: leaders became involved with each other. Blinds were around 2000/4000ish and
: the two chip leaders had approx 100k each. Player A raised the pot pre-flop and
: Player B called from the BB. The flop arrived 2h A 6 rainbow. Player B raises
: all in and Player A calls (virtually all in, I think he had about 2.5k left
: over) with Jh 8h??? Player B reveals A6. This is the most bizarre call I have
: seen for ages and was entirely out of character for Player A. I had been on
: player As table for over an hour and he had played very tight selective poker.
: He seems very capable and his username lies in the top 30 in the yearly
: tournament leaderboard, so one has to assume he plays enough to have some idea
: what he was doing. The turn and river showed two hearts and Player A went on to
: win the tourney. However, what exactly was the logical reason for his call with
: absolutely nothing? I put it down to him hitting the wrong button and getting
: really lucky. I wasnt bothered, it shifted me up the money by an unexpected
: place and I eventually managed 3rd.
:
: I thought no more of it until three days later when I reached the final
: table of another tourney, this time a $30 NLH and found Player A positioned
: immediately to my left. Again he had a hefty stack and again, this time with
: seven players left, he made a huge call for all his chips with absolutely
: nothing and hit a runner runner straight. This time he held Q10o, raised the
: pot pre flop and got 1 caller (not Player B above who was not present). The
: caller went all in on a A 9 5 flop, holding Ace-rag and the turn and river came
: KJ. This was another particularly odd CALL all in with nothing, again at a
: stage where Player A could pass and still be a comfortable third place.
: Eventually Player A came 2nd. I still cannot think of any mitigating
: circumstances for making either call. Perhaps early in a tournament from a
: player who does not know what he is doing, fair enough, but this is from a
: clearly experienced player at the final table of the tourney.
:
: This behaviour is bizarre at best. But is it suspicious? I gained from
: both situations, and neither of them really had a huge effect on me so Im not
: being a sore loser at all. Neither am I alleging anything dodgy was going on,
: but it has occurred to me as rather odd play. I am simply wondering if there
: are any explanations for these calls I am overlooking. Does anyone have an
: opinion on this? Are the calls suspicious? Can anyone offer an explanation?
:
: MattJ
:
: ps. i am NOT one of those who thinks internet poker is rigged etc etc and
: please do not read this post as being that sort of rant. [i have just reread
: the post and it might be misinterpreted].
:
: pps. if it is all indeed rigged, long may it remain so because i am more than
: satisfied with the results they are giving me Smile
Ben
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:40 pm
Reply with quote
Hi Matt, good to see you posting regularly again.

I think that in isolation either call could be passed off as an error. Considered together I confess that I'm suspicious.

It's surely possible that a player could hack into the Pokerstars server and see the turn and river in advance. Alternatively, perhaps they could duplicate the Pokerstars shuffle by cracking their 'randomising' process.

Either of these abilities might lead to the kind of calls that you describe. However, a big argument against this theory is that the cheat would be desperate to evade capture and making these sort of calls would risk bringing precisely the sort of unwanted attention s/he's trying to avoid.

Armed with the abilities that I've suggested, I think it would be easier to make handsome profits without such risks.

Then again, what if the cheating system was inefficient and only worked (fast enough?) on say, 1 in 50 hands? Perhaps in this scenario there wouldn't be reliable earnings to be had and every opportunity to win by cheating would have to be grasped. Especially true when you consider that most turn/river combinations will not give the cheat a winning hand.

I hope that I'm just being paranoid, but if I were you I'd forward my concerns to Pokerstars. They're extremely good at investigating these cases and with all of their available data, they can usually come up with a very confident opinion.


--Previous Message--

: OK, second post,
:
: This relates to unusual play on the internet. The events described happened
: about a month ago, but they have been bugging me for ages and now is as good a
: time as any to get some opinions.
:
: I reached the final table of a pokerstars $50 NLH tourney. With 6 players
: left I was quite a short stack when an unusual hand turned up when the two chip
: leaders became involved with each other. Blinds were around 2000/4000ish and
: the two chip leaders had approx 100k each. Player A raised the pot pre-flop and
: Player B called from the BB. The flop arrived 2h A 6 rainbow. Player B raises
: all in and Player A calls (virtually all in, I think he had about 2.5k left
: over) with Jh 8h??? Player B reveals A6. This is the most bizarre call I have
: seen for ages and was entirely out of character for Player A. I had been on
: player A’s table for over an hour and he had played very tight selective poker.
: He seems very capable and his username lies in the top 30 in the yearly
: tournament leaderboard, so one has to assume he plays enough to have some idea
: what he was doing. The turn and river showed two hearts and Player A went on to
: win the tourney. However, what exactly was the logical reason for his call with
: absolutely nothing? I put it down to him hitting the wrong button and getting
: really lucky. I wasn’t bothered, it shifted me up the money by an unexpected
: place and I eventually managed 3rd.
:
: I thought no more of it until three days later when I reached the final
: table of another tourney, this time a $30 NLH and found Player A positioned
: immediately to my left. Again he had a hefty stack and again, this time with
: seven players left, he made a huge call for all his chips with absolutely
: nothing and hit a runner runner straight. This time he held Q10o, raised the
: pot pre flop and got 1 caller (not Player B above who was not present). The
: caller went all in on a A 9 5 flop, holding Ace-rag and the turn and river came
: KJ. This was another particularly odd CALL all in with nothing, again at a
: stage where Player A could pass and still be a comfortable third place.
: Eventually Player A came 2nd. I still cannot think of any mitigating
: circumstances for making either call. Perhaps early in a tournament from a
: player who does not know what he is doing, fair enough, but this is from a
: clearly experienced player at the final table of the tourney.
:
: This behaviour is bizarre at best. But is it suspicious? I gained from
: both situations, and neither of them really had a huge effect on me so I’m not
: being a sore loser at all. Neither am I alleging anything dodgy was going on,
: but it has occurred to me as rather odd play. I am simply wondering if there
: are any explanations for these calls I am overlooking. Does anyone have an
: opinion on this? Are the calls suspicious? Can anyone offer an explanation?
:
: MattJ
:
: ps. i am NOT one of those who thinks internet poker is rigged etc etc and
: please do not read this post as being that sort of rant. [i have just reread
: the post and it might be misinterpreted].
:
: pps. if it is all indeed rigged, long may it remain so because i am more than
: satisfied with the results they are giving me Smile
The Lit Crit
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:51 pm
Reply with quote

Can I ask if player A goes by the handle Alex1?

Crit.
--Previous Message--

: Hi Matt, good to see you posting regularly again.
:
: I think that in isolation either call could be passed off as an error.
: Considered together I confess that I'm suspicious.
:
: It's surely possible that a player could hack into the Pokerstars server and
: see the turn and river in advance. Alternatively, perhaps they could duplicate
: the Pokerstars shuffle by cracking their 'randomising' process.
:
: Either of these abilities might lead to the kind of calls that you describe.
: However, a big argument against this theory is that the cheat would be desperate
: to evade capture and making these sort of calls would risk bringing precisely
: the sort of unwanted attention s/he's trying to avoid.
:
: Armed with the abilities that I've suggested, I think it would be easier to
: make handsome profits without such risks.
:
: Then again, what if the cheating system was inefficient and only worked (fast
: enough?) on say, 1 in 50 hands? Perhaps in this scenario there wouldn't be
: reliable earnings to be had and every opportunity to win by cheating would have
: to be grasped. Especially true when you consider that most turn/river
: combinations will not give the cheat a winning hand.
:
: I hope that I'm just being paranoid, but if I were you I'd forward my concerns
: to Pokerstars. They're extremely good at investigating these cases and with all
: of their available data, they can usually come up with a very confident
: opinion.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : OK, second post,
: :
: : This relates to unusual play on the internet. The events described
: happened
: : about a month ago, but they have been bugging me for ages and now is as good
: a
: : time as any to get some opinions.
: :
: : I reached the final table of a pokerstars $50 NLH tourney. With 6
: players
: : left I was quite a short stack when an unusual hand turned up when the two
: chip
: : leaders became involved with each other. Blinds were around 2000/4000ish
: and
: : the two chip leaders had approx 100k each. Player A raised the pot pre-flop
: and
: : Player B called from the BB. The flop arrived 2h A 6 rainbow. Player B
: raises
: : all in and Player A calls (virtually all in, I think he had about 2.5k left
: : over) with Jh 8h??? Player B reveals A6. This is the most bizarre call I
: have
: : seen for ages and was entirely out of character for Player A. I had been
: on
: : player As table for over an hour and he had played very tight
: selective poker.
: : He seems very capable and his username lies in the top 30 in the yearly
: : tournament leaderboard, so one has to assume he plays enough to have some
: idea
: : what he was doing. The turn and river showed two hearts and Player A went
: on to
: : win the tourney. However, what exactly was the logical reason for his call
: with
: : absolutely nothing? I put it down to him hitting the wrong button and
: getting
: : really lucky. I wasnt bothered, it shifted me up the money by an
: unexpected
: : place and I eventually managed 3rd.
: :
: : I thought no more of it until three days later when I reached the final
: : table of another tourney, this time a $30 NLH and found Player A positioned
: : immediately to my left. Again he had a hefty stack and again, this time
: with
: : seven players left, he made a huge call for all his chips with absolutely
: : nothing and hit a runner runner straight. This time he held Q10o, raised
: the
: : pot pre flop and got 1 caller (not Player B above who was not present).
: The
: : caller went all in on a A 9 5 flop, holding Ace-rag and the turn and river
: came
: : KJ. This was another particularly odd CALL all in with nothing, again at a
: : stage where Player A could pass and still be a comfortable third place.
: : Eventually Player A came 2nd. I still cannot think of any mitigating
: : circumstances for making either call. Perhaps early in a tournament from a
: : player who does not know what he is doing, fair enough, but this is from a
: : clearly experienced player at the final table of the tourney.
: :
: : This behaviour is bizarre at best. But is it suspicious? I gained from
: : both situations, and neither of them really had a huge effect on me so
: Im not
: : being a sore loser at all. Neither am I alleging anything dodgy was going
: on,
: : but it has occurred to me as rather odd play. I am simply wondering if
: there
: : are any explanations for these calls I am overlooking. Does anyone have an
: : opinion on this? Are the calls suspicious? Can anyone offer an
: explanation?
: :
: : MattJ
: :
: : ps. i am NOT one of those who thinks internet poker is rigged etc etc and
: : please do not read this post as being that sort of rant. [i have just
: reread
: : the post and it might be misinterpreted].
: :
: : pps. if it is all indeed rigged, long may it remain so because i am more
: than
: : satisfied with the results they are giving me Smile
redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:02 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Sounds like him Smile


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

Ben
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:11 pm
Reply with quote
Assuming that you guys often see Alex1 making these kind of calls on the final table, can you confirm whether he usually gets knocked out as a result?


--Previous Message--

:
: Sounds like him Smile
:
redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:20 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Alex1 is a very loose very aggressive player.

I don't think for a minute he's cracked the "code" otherwise why does he bust as much as he wins these allins?


--Previous Message--

: Assuming that you guys often see Alex1 making these kind of calls on the final
: table, can you confirm whether he usually gets knocked out as a result?
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: :
: : Sounds like him Smile
: :


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

Ben
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:36 pm
Reply with quote
OK, I think your answer to my question is an implied "Yes, he usually gets knocked out". Thanks Simon.

However, it doesn't sound like Alex1 is the player Matt's describing because that player calls for all his chips, holding nothing. If Alex1 is as you describe then presumably he'd bet all-in here but not call all-in? Or have I misunderstood?

Come on Matt, name names! Arsenal are three nil down already so you might as well forget the footy Surprised)


--Previous Message--

: Alex1 is a very loose very aggressive player.
:
: I don't think for a minute he's cracked the "code" otherwise why does he bust
: as much as he wins these allins?
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : Assuming that you guys often see Alex1 making these kind of calls on the
: final
: : table, can you confirm whether he usually gets knocked out as a result?
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : :
: : : Sounds like him Smile
: : :
:
MattJ
Straight


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:39 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Nope, its not Alex1, i've played with him and i agree he's rather loose/aggressive etc etc (and very successful playing that way too), but still i think would pass in both circumstances. There is a difference between being aggressive and being stupid.
MattJ
--Previous Message--

:
: Can I ask if player A goes by the handle Alex1?
:
: Crit.
: --Previous Message--
:
: : Hi Matt, good to see you posting regularly again.
: :
: : I think that in isolation either call could be passed off as an error.
: : Considered together I confess that I'm suspicious.
: :
: : It's surely possible that a player could hack into the Pokerstars server
: and
: : see the turn and river in advance. Alternatively, perhaps they could
: duplicate
: : the Pokerstars shuffle by cracking their 'randomising' process.
: :
: : Either of these abilities might lead to the kind of calls that you describe.
:
: : However, a big argument against this theory is that the cheat would be
: desperate
: : to evade capture and making these sort of calls would risk bringing
: precisely
: : the sort of unwanted attention s/he's trying to avoid.
: :
: : Armed with the abilities that I've suggested, I think it would be easier to
: : make handsome profits without such risks.
: :
: : Then again, what if the cheating system was inefficient and only worked
: (fast
: : enough?) on say, 1 in 50 hands? Perhaps in this scenario there wouldn't be
: : reliable earnings to be had and every opportunity to win by cheating would
: have
: : to be grasped. Especially true when you consider that most turn/river
: : combinations will not give the cheat a winning hand.
: :
: : I hope that I'm just being paranoid, but if I were you I'd forward my
: concerns
: : to Pokerstars. They're extremely good at investigating these cases and with
: all
: : of their available data, they can usually come up with a very confident
: : opinion.
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : OK, second post,
: : :
: : : This relates to unusual play on the internet. The events described
: : happened
: : : about a month ago, but they have been bugging me for ages and now is as
: good
: : a
: : : time as any to get some opinions.
: : :
: : : I reached the final table of a pokerstars $50 NLH tourney. With 6
: : players
: : : left I was quite a short stack when an unusual hand turned up when the
: two
: : chip
: : : leaders became involved with each other. Blinds were around 2000/4000ish
: : and
: : : the two chip leaders had approx 100k each. Player A raised the pot
: pre-flop
: : and
: : : Player B called from the BB. The flop arrived 2h A 6 rainbow. Player B
: : raises
: : : all in and Player A calls (virtually all in, I think he had about 2.5k
: left
: : : over) with Jh 8h??? Player B reveals A6. This is the most bizarre call I
: : have
: : : seen for ages and was entirely out of character for Player A. I had been
: : on
: : : player As table for over an hour and he had played very tight
: : selective poker.
: : : He seems very capable and his username lies in the top 30 in the yearly
: : : tournament leaderboard, so one has to assume he plays enough to have some
: : idea
: : : what he was doing. The turn and river showed two hearts and Player A
: went
: : on to
: : : win the tourney. However, what exactly was the logical reason for his
: call
: : with
: : : absolutely nothing? I put it down to him hitting the wrong button and
: : getting
: : : really lucky. I wasnt bothered, it shifted me up the money by an
: : unexpected
: : : place and I eventually managed 3rd.
: : :
: : : I thought no more of it until three days later when I reached the
: final
: : : table of another tourney, this time a $30 NLH and found Player A
: positioned
: : : immediately to my left. Again he had a hefty stack and again, this time
: : with
: : : seven players left, he made a huge call for all his chips with absolutely
: : : nothing and hit a runner runner straight. This time he held Q10o, raised
: : the
: : : pot pre flop and got 1 caller (not Player B above who was not present).
: : The
: : : caller went all in on a A 9 5 flop, holding Ace-rag and the turn and
: river
: : came
: : : KJ. This was another particularly odd CALL all in with nothing, again at
: a
: : : stage where Player A could pass and still be a comfortable third place.
: : : Eventually Player A came 2nd. I still cannot think of any mitigating
: : : circumstances for making either call. Perhaps early in a tournament from
: a
: : : player who does not know what he is doing, fair enough, but this is from
: a
: : : clearly experienced player at the final table of the tourney.
: : :
: : : This behaviour is bizarre at best. But is it suspicious? I gained
: from
: : : both situations, and neither of them really had a huge effect on me so
: : Im not
: : : being a sore loser at all. Neither am I alleging anything dodgy was
: going
: : on,
: : : but it has occurred to me as rather odd play. I am simply wondering if
: : there
: : : are any explanations for these calls I am overlooking. Does anyone have
: an
: : : opinion on this? Are the calls suspicious? Can anyone offer an
: : explanation?
: : :
: : : MattJ
: : :
: : : ps. i am NOT one of those who thinks internet poker is rigged etc etc
: and
: : : please do not read this post as being that sort of rant. [i have just
: : reread
: : : the post and it might be misinterpreted].
: : :
: : : pps. if it is all indeed rigged, long may it remain so because i am more
: : than
: : : satisfied with the results they are giving me Smile


_________________
???
FFFC1
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:48 pm
Reply with quote
Not if you laid Arsenal to win the group at the absurd price of 1.95. In that case you plump up the cushions and enjoy the second half to the full.

While I'm here, Matt, you should probably just email pokerstars.

FFFC1

--Previous Message--

: OK, I think your answer to my question is an implied "Yes, he usually gets
: knocked out". Thanks Simon.
:
: However, it doesn't sound like Alex1 is the player Matt's describing because
: that player calls for all his chips, holding nothing. If Alex1 is as you
: describe then presumably he'd bet all-in here but not call all-in? Or have I
: misunderstood?
:
: Come on Matt, name names! Arsenal are three nil down already so you might as
: well forget the footy Surprised)
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : Alex1 is a very loose very aggressive player.
: :
: : I don't think for a minute he's cracked the "code" otherwise why does he
: bust
: : as much as he wins these allins?
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : Assuming that you guys often see Alex1 making these kind of calls on the
: : final
: : : table, can you confirm whether he usually gets knocked out as a result?
: : :
: : :
: : : --Previous Message--
: : :
: : : :
: : : : Sounds like him Smile
: : : :
: :
redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:19 am
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Looking through the top 30 on 'Stars, I can only see one other player who I've tangled with who makes wild stabs and gets lucky a lot "iamlucky" (What an ironic nickname that is !) Smile

Though to be fair he is a fairly aggressive player and can lay down hands.

MattJ, when I read your post I thought A lost the first example and won the second. Rereading I see what might concern you. Have you masde discreet enquiries with support at 'stars? If there is a large number of these dubious and winning calls then you might have something. If I could crack the "code" then I think I'll be on the $300 Sit N Goes 24/7! Smile (PLus an occasional foray into the $200 comps!)


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

jamie
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:14 am
Reply with quote
The only player on there I've seen make equally bizarre/suspicious calls is scarface1. I once saw him call with something like 35 on a board of AK9 and hit runner runner for the straight.
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