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StGilmore
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 6:52 pm
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All words of wisdom, experience and direction to poker literature on best various ways to play AK please I beg you.

I just don't know what to do if I don't hit. Especially when I'm oop of course.




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StGilmore
Straight Flush


Joined: 12 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:04 pm
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See I know how to do it when it works like this... Maybe I should just fold AK when I'm oop. LOL



By the way, in this T so far I've had AK 3 times and best besides that was pocket 8's once. ugh. (2 hours in)
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SamJess
Straight


Joined: 09 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:04 pm
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Hand 1 - played fine. if they have AQ/KQ/K10/1010 here - probably folds.

A 2nd barrel is also worth a shot depending upon how stubborn your opponent is.

You got to river cheaply with A high..... what more do you want??

Hand 2 - AK is a hand that you have to fold sometimes. Especially when you miss. This board hits and the bet is probably to protect opponent hand when the st8 draw misses.
You can bet a bit more pre to try and get heads up (I think you still get 2 callers - still have to fold).

You could call to draw - this is a spew, great when Q comes (if you get paid off) but OOP this is a sure loser long term against good players (and probably average players).

You can try and re-raise for a slow played monster - I don't think this is a good spot to do this though and against good players probably get picked off.

Hand 3 - WP. Wink

I don't really see much wrong with how you played these hands..
ryanpb
Full House


Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:11 pm
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IMO It heavily depends on the circumstances and stack sizes.

based on 100 big blind stacks

Pre Flop

I'd raise 2.5 x if nobody has opened

If someone has raised I'd 3 bet to 2.5x their raise

(This will probably take it down)

If they 4 bet they may have a monster so I'd call the 4 if they have been previously tight or shove if they have been agro.

Flop

On a dry to medium board I'm betting 65% - 80% of the pot, which makes it look more like a value bet and less like a c-bet, meaning they think you have concealed trips etc.

Wet flop I'm checking to try and get to the river for a showdown as cheap as possible, I may put a blocker bet in on the turn or river. Unless you are short stacked, I wouldn't push on a wet flop, even if you pair up


Hope that helps a little
X
Quads


Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:30 am
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I don't think you played those hands badly - sometimes you just don't win with AK.

PF OOP I'm almost always (80%?) going to 3-bet AK. The second hand is more difficult because you're facing two opponents, and it's hard to see you not being behind to at least one player on the flop in that spot (although it's entirely possibly that a bet on the flop might also win it).
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knifeboy62
Quads


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:34 am
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SamJess wrote:

A 2nd barrel is also worth a shot depending upon how stubborn your opponent is.

I don't really see much wrong with how you played these hands..


If I am firing once then I am firing twice in most cases. A light caller on the flop can easily tell themselves you have exactly what you have, AK (or equiv) that missed. It's much harder for them to be so sure after two barrels.

I agree, can't see much wrong with how you played these though. You had a drawing hand that missed, ho hum.
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StGilmore
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:47 pm
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Thanks guys.

KB: You had a drawing hand that missed, ho hum.

It's true. But I appreciate the chance to ask because I don't know if there are things I don't know, ya know? Wink
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"I find it's best to start the day with no composure and then you've got nothing to lose." B. Boatman

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The Dean
Straight Flush


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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Location: with position on you

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:39 pm
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Hand 1:

You raised to 180 pre-----standard 3x raise and so no problem pre-flop. Just need to be mindful of our hand being "exposed" with that kind of action.

Heads up on a J-8-8 board when he checks then c-betting is fine heads up even though the board misses much of our EP range. When he check-calls then a jack takes up much of his range here and the average player has fewer eight combo's than jacks. Possible that he could have 10-9 but many players would check-raise semi-bluff with that and especially against a lone opponent with overcards as much of their total range.

Also possible that he is check-calling with a medium pocket pair like sevens of sixes for instance against your overs and pot controlling without allowing you to push them from the pot. When the queen arrives and they check again then I think barrelling is a good option. You have the equity of the gutshot and the queen hits hands like Q-Q, AQ and KQs which are in your small EP range.

Another barrel basically blows them from small to medium pocket pairs and puts them to the test with a jack as they may also have to call a third barrel on the river but this is opponent dependent. Checking and taking the free card is not weak poker.......just a different line but your hand is pretty much "obvious" to your opponent who is taking you for missed overs and so bluffing the river will be difficult when you check the turn as will extracting value if you river a king or ace. When this hand gets shown down then you may need to balance somewhat by changing your lines with certain hands.

Like using a bet-check-bet line when you suspect that your hand is beating most of your opponents range. Checking and then betting with the likely best hand allows them to bluff the river with missed draws when OOP or call your river "bluff" with a bluff catcher in position based on your earlier line.

Will comment on hands 2 and 3 later Smile
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knifeboy62
Quads


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:02 am
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StGilmore wrote:
Thanks guys.

KB: You had a drawing hand that missed, ho hum.

It's true. But I appreciate the chance to ask because I don't know if there are things I don't know, ya know? Wink


I didn't mean to seem patronizing St G, apologies if it came across that way. I just find it easier for myself to keep that in mind when playing AK so I don't beat myself up to much when having to fold and don't get sucked into over-playing it.
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StGilmore
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:42 am
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Thanks Dean.


You raised to 180 pre-----standard 3x raise and so no problem pre-flop. Just need to be mindful of our hand being "exposed" with that kind of action.

Exposed financially because of the best size? Or exposed as a high cards type hand? (I balance out the range I 3x with tho.)

On a side note- I struggle with bet sizing on Genting because the bet slider is not sensitive and the box choices are call, 2x, 3x - no in between. And when working out the exact bet I want to use in the past I've often been timed out since there's no timebank and I'm not quick enough with thinking and typing in a bet.
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StGilmore
Straight Flush


Joined: 12 May 2010
Posts: 3061
Location: nil fhios agam

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:49 am
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knifeboy62 wrote:
StGilmore wrote:
Thanks guys.

KB: You had a drawing hand that missed, ho hum.

It's true. But I appreciate the chance to ask because I don't know if there are things I don't know, ya know? Wink


I didn't mean to seem patronizing St G, apologies if it came across that way. I just find it easier for myself to keep that in mind when playing AK so I don't beat myself up to much when having to fold and don't get sucked into over-playing it.


No, no I get you. As it stands I seem to vary between getting sucked into over-playing it and discarding it as rubbish the minute I don't hit on the flop because it feels so dangerous. So it's a matter of finding the game in between - as Ryan said playing it with stacks and circumstances in mind.
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"I find it's best to start the day with no composure and then you've got nothing to lose." B. Boatman

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The Dean
Straight Flush


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 3209
Location: with position on you

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:13 pm
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StGilmore wrote:
Thanks Dean.


You raised to 180 pre-----standard 3x raise and so no problem pre-flop. Just need to be mindful of our hand being "exposed" with that kind of action.

Exposed financially because of the best size? Or exposed as a high cards type hand? (I balance out the range I 3x with tho.)

On a side note- I struggle with bet sizing on Genting because the bet slider is not sensitive and the box choices are call, 2x, 3x - no in between. And when working out the exact bet I want to use in the past I've often been timed out since there's no timebank and I'm not quick enough with thinking and typing in a bet.




Hi StG

When I said "exposed" then I should have explained it better. I didn't mean your bet sizing as I didn't have enough info to make that kind of observation. But I think you need to remember that you are playing against people who are "reading" the game. Clearly many players may overestimate their ability to hand read but they will still do it to a large extent at most levels.

This is full ring with decent stacks and so most players will only have a small EP range......your opponents do not need to be great players to know this. So they have essentially "read" your hand. A poor player who takes his initial assessment of AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJs as gospel has still arrived at a good "read" if you do actually have a hand like A-K.

Depending on the circumstances then this makes bluffing tougher and implied odds suffer and extracting value from better hands is more difficult when you connect. In fact reverse implied odds can be a problem here if you are not careful.

This is what I meant by being "exposed".......it is simply how your opponents are initially assessing your EP range and what that means on certain types of flop.
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The Dean
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:28 pm
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Hand 2

I think that this is a bet sizing error pre-flop. You really dont want to play an A-K out of position and the near min-raise pre-flop and two callers is no indication of strength. I think your bet size pre-flop with your three bet basically buys you a problem. The raiser makes it T126 and gets two callers. This puts T438 into the pot before the flop.

I am really looking to take this down pre-flop and it needs a bigger raise than to T480 to achieve this. Because I dont want to play what is a likely weak to marginal hand out of position post flop then I am raising more than the pot to end the flop now and cut down on my opponents implied odds. So my raise would be to around T700-750. Your bet size leaves you sandwiched between two callers and unless you improve on the flop then you are in a tricky spot..that would have been my play personally.

Post flop based on what actually happened then it is marginal whether betting or checking after the SB checks is the most profitable play. Even with the equity of the gutshot, the flop texture and two opponents makes it marginal and when the SB leads out on the turn then I think you have to fold and any other play is non-standard. But I simply re-raise more pre-flop which more than likely ends the hand or at worst gets it heads up.
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StGilmore
Straight Flush


Joined: 12 May 2010
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Location: nil fhios agam

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:57 pm
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Ah I see - there's a big re raise and then there's a shouting re raise and I see why in this position I've got to be shouting to have any success.

(I've got to get better at figuring what opponent's hold. If I were either of these players I'd have called with at least pocket 10's and up so I have to find the bet where I get those to fold.)
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