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doninwales
High Card


Joined: 08 Jul 2016
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:51 pm
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I am relatively new to the poker scene, and was in a live tournament a few weeks ago - only a small local tournament, so no tournament director or other official, other than the person organising the event.
However, one hand caused quite a lot of confusion, and has led to much argument ever since.
I've been searching the internet for an answer, but to no avail.
I have found 'similar' (but not the same) situations discussed on these forums, and the people here appear to be very authoritative, so I thought I'd ask for advice on my situation... Smile


Eight player table. Large bets taking place, pre-flop. 6 players drop out after after the flop or turn.

At the river, just two players left.
The first player checks.
The second player also checks, simultaneously throwing his cards face down on to the table muttering 'I don't have anything' He did not declare that he was folding, nor did his cards hit the muck pile.

First player then shows his cards, 10 high, and proceeds to collect the large pot.
Second player quickly retrieves his cards, turns them over showing Jack high and claims the pot as his.

Much confusion ensues, with the loudest players claiming the the second player's cards were 'mucked' and hence dead.
The first player took the pot, and the second player felt very aggrieved.
Neither player were all-in, but the pot was relatively, very big.

MY thoughts are that the second player's cards were still in-play, since
* He had not announced that he was folding
* His cards did not hit the muck pile.

The confusing issue is that he did throw them face down on the table, and was heard to say 'I don't have anything'.
I appreciate that it 'could' be interpreted as them being thrown away (and 'perhaps' mucked...?)
(Although 'his' interpretation was that he was throwing them down in disgust with the expectation that it was a losing hand, and awaiting the first player to show his hand. When the first player's hand 'was' shown and he realised he actually had the winning hand, he turned his cards over to show them).

I've been scouring the internet for concrete rules and came up with the following:
The MUCK refers to the discards and other dead cards piled in front of the dealer.
If a player declares I fold, his cards are considered dead
Cards that touch any part of the muck are generally considered dead, so always protect your cards until you are sure you want to let them go. In the interest of fair play, however, if a player's cards are mistakenly mucked but are still able to be identified, they can (and really should, unless you play with severe nits) be retrieved from the discard pile.

Is rather confusing to a relative newbie like myself. I might attempt to interpret these 'rules' in a variety of ways to either support the case of Player 1 or Player 2......

HELP..........
melbell
High Card


Joined: 12 Jul 2016
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:51 pm
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My thoughts would be they are mucked. Based on the fact he said he didn't have anything and threw them down.
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