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MM
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1685
Location: Hendon
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 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:51 am
Post subject: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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There's a new blog entry by Neil Channing:
Game Selection |
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3146
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:06 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Quote: | | It's pretty ridiculous really - they all think I'm terrible but they have none of the professional poker skills required to do the job. |
Good article (as always).......as long as they think that then you own them. Maybe not at the actual table on any given day but over a lifetime then for sure when most of these "hotshots" have blown out for whatever reason and are either doing day jobs again or scrounging buy-ins. Good thing is that they will never realise it in a million years.
Scrap that bloody nickname as well Neil......seen you loads on Sky Poker and "bad beat" is certainly not relevant to you unless you mean that you had a bad beat ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  |
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stowjon
Royal Flush
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 7463
Location: willingham
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:11 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Quote: | | It's pretty ridiculous really - they all think I'm terrible but they have none of the professional poker skills required to do the job. |
I disagree with this Neil, if they had none of the skills to do the job, then why are so many of them there playing as many events as they can!
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"There's not enough hippies to save our lives, We need more hippies" |
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3146
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| stowjon wrote: | | Quote: | | It's pretty ridiculous really - they all think I'm terrible but they have none of the professional poker skills required to do the job. |
I disagree with this Neil, if they had none of the skills to do the job, then why are so many of them there playing as many events as they can! |
I took it to mean a much broader spectrum of things.....don't know if that is what he meant but it read to me like he was referring to the entire spectrum of professional poker IMO |
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Rigsby
Full House
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 975
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Quote: |
I took it to mean a much broader spectrum of things.....don't know if that is what he meant but it read to me like he was referring to the entire spectrum of professional poker IMO |
This is exactly how i read it |
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evelyn
Quads
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2097
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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"The average player in a bigger event is under 25, has headphones on all day, has a lot of stuff to be doing on their iPad and has zero interest in conversing with anyone over the age of 30. They literally talk across me and if I try and join in they often just completely ignore me.
It's pretty ridiculous really - they all think I'm terrible but they have none of the professional poker skills required to do the job. You are supposed to amuse the fish, make sure he has a nice time and keep him coming back. If I really was doing my brains in these events I wouldn't come back."
Why do they allow ipads ? These players could be cheating by using software. I'd complain and get it stopped. |
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Rigsby
Full House
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 975
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| surely they cant use ipad or even a mobile whilst involved in a hand? |
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Vof
One Pair
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 28
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:32 am
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| The Dean wrote: | Good article (as always).......as long as they think that then you own them. Maybe not at the actual table on any given day but over a lifetime then for sure when most of these "hotshots" have blown out for whatever reason and are either doing day jobs again or scrounging buy-ins. Good thing is that they will never realise it in a million years.
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Lol, the only reason some of these guys will be 'doing day jobs again' will be the godawful state of the online industry in the US, not because of any perceived edges in ability. With respect to Neil the technical ability of most of these guys is in a different league. They do need to be more engaging at the tables though, clearly. |
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Brodders
Full House
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1198
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:22 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Vof wrote: | | The Dean wrote: | Good article (as always).......as long as they think that then you own them. Maybe not at the actual table on any given day but over a lifetime then for sure when most of these "hotshots" have blown out for whatever reason and are either doing day jobs again or scrounging buy-ins. Good thing is that they will never realise it in a million years.
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Lol, the only reason some of these guys will be 'doing day jobs again' will be the godawful state of the online industry in the US, not because of any perceived edges in ability. With respect to Neil the technical ability of most of these guys is in a different league. They do need to be more engaging at the tables though, clearly. |
Intersting that you feel that these guys have a technical edge over someone of Neil's experience and accomplishments especially given the difference in online v live and having to play without any "help" like holdem manager. |
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3146
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Vof wrote: | | The Dean wrote: | Good article (as always).......as long as they think that then you own them. Maybe not at the actual table on any given day but over a lifetime then for sure when most of these "hotshots" have blown out for whatever reason and are either doing day jobs again or scrounging buy-ins. Good thing is that they will never realise it in a million years.
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Lol, the only reason some of these guys will be 'doing day jobs again' will be the godawful state of the online industry in the US, not because of any perceived edges in ability. With respect to Neil the technical ability of most of these guys is in a different league. They do need to be more engaging at the tables though, clearly. |
Sorry mate but Lol back
If you think that the "godawful state of the online industry in the US" accounts for all of these people or a very significant percentage of them or even more than half then that is laughable.
Placing too much emphasis on this supposed "technical ability" at the expense of other skills and areas of expertise associated with professional gambling is what gets these people into trouble in the first place. Switch most of these people to Europe and they end up the same way.
Having "technical ability" counts for precisely jack if you are locking horns with other players with similar abilities. Remember that Neil was generalising and not quoting everybody.
I know where my money's going on who will still be around in 5-10 years time. |
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darrensprengers
Misclick
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 6920
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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I started playing on the internet. I only ever used maths. I never even thought about luck or hands in anything other than a distribution. I thought this was standard and when i first played live i was really surprised by the colossal mistake i had made about how people think when they play poker. I could not comprehend it. I still cant understand thoughts revolving around luck and chance but i can just about understand why some people do. maybe linking it to hope.
What people like vof do is listen to the interviews 'of the young kids' that have won. They, not having a natural sense of distribution, identify with them and not the huge percentage of 'young kids' who win f**k all ever. The huge amount who win a lot and lose it all. They happily, with complete disregard for math, distribution, genuinely calculated variance and value, point to the successful few. Then to complete their lack of mathematical knowledge they attack people that dont meet their perception of a successful player. Without the slightest knowledge of any intrinsic, required data, except that they are old.
For every victor blom there are 100 of these:
| Quote: | | I didn't want to play with a load of monosyllabic, boring, whiny, deluded adolescents with no manners or conversation though so I skipped the $3,000 that Friday and jumped in the $1,500 on Saturday instead. |
This is where i disagree with neil though. These deluded people are the ones who pony up 10-100k per series and beg, borrow, steal the money to be there. These guy are the new fish feeding the new economy of poker. Its not as paletable when people losing money are not happy to do so but sadly this is the future.
The main difference i think is the difference between expectation and hope. Entering a tournament hoping to win is normal and will make you a lot more balanced. Expecting to win means, regardless of your age, that you are a delusional idiot, even ironically if you win .
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The next best thing to gambling and winning is gambling and losing.
-- Nick "The Greek" Dandalos |
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snowing
Two Pair
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 74
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:24 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| stowjon wrote: | | Quote: | | It's pretty ridiculous really - they all think I'm terrible but they have none of the professional poker skills required to do the job. |
I disagree with this Neil, if they had none of the skills to do the job, then why are so many of them there playing as many events as they can! |
I think that being able to play the game well is not really close to the whole picture if you want to be a professional gambler. Kinda refering to Vofs post above here too, but technical ability isn't everything. In fact very many people have wonderful technical ability and will not be especially successful. Its all about the money and how you deal with it, and the people and how you deal with them. Its all about the intangibles associated with the lifestyle as it were, not how well they play their cards.
I have run my own business for years and i if i were to draw a comparison with playing poker it would be this: technical card ability is akin to running the business day-to-day, the 'nuts and bolts' of the job as it were. And i can assure you that it is relatively simple to have a business running smoothly, i could teach anyone that in a month or two. The tough part is handling the banks, the lawyers, and the people you encounter (customers and rivals). The tricky bit is planning for the future of your business; making smart 'bigger picture decisions'. Poker is the same. It's not difficult to aquire the skills to become a winning player. But its really tough to handle the finances admirably, and handle the 'fish' that are providing your living. Too many of the young kids these days understand the former and seem to completely ignore the necessity of the latter. |
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Vof
One Pair
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 28
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:39 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| darrensprengers wrote: |
This is where i disagree with neil though. These deluded people are the ones who pony up 10-100k per series and beg, borrow, steal the money to be there. |
Yes, because it's way more likely that the players who are disciplined enough to make their money online winning over hundreds of thousands of hands will be in this type of financial situation, compared to the broke live degens like Erick Lindgren, Brad Booth, Matusow et al, the likes of which you conveniently gloss over. I have little doubt that proportionally, it's true that there are more oldschool live player degens than young, online guy degens. Just read some of the 'old school' vs 'new school' debate in here if you don't believe me. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...wont-pay-1174966/ You might learn something about young guys in poker as opposed to just be spouting conjecture.
| Quote: | | These guy are the new fish feeding the new economy of poker. |
 Well, Neil Channing should have no problems busting these guys then...
And what's that bullshit about these guys 'expecting' to win? You're basically saying that the bulk of these guys don't have the first clue about variance in big tournaments? |
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evelyn
Quads
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2097
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Quote: | | Interesting that you feel that these guys have a technical edge over someone of Neil's experience and accomplishments especially given the difference in online v live and having to play without any "help" like holdem manager. |
I think of poker as like a foreign language ; something which requires constant practice to keep up to snuff.
"I've played so little poker in the last seven or eight months I hardly gave a thought to my own chances."
I would not have done very well if I repeated my French 'O' level eight months after the first exam. |
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darrensprengers
Misclick
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 6920
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: New article by Neil Channing 'Bad Beat' - Game Selection |
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| Vof wrote: | | darrensprengers wrote: |
This is where i disagree with neil though. These deluded people are the ones who pony up 10-100k per series and beg, borrow, steal the money to be there. |
Yes, because it's way more likely that the players who are disciplined enough to make their money online winning over hundreds of thousands of hands will be in this type of financial situation, compared to the broke live degens like Erick Lindgren, Brad Booth et al, the likes of which you conveniently gloss over.
| Quote: | | These guy are the new fish feeding the new economy of poker. |
Well, Neil Channing should have no problems busting these guys then...
And what's that bullshit about these guys 'expecting' to win? You're basically saying that the bulk of these guys don't have the first clue about variance in big tournaments? |
No not at all. Some of these players are fantastic. I have first hand experience of how good they are. What i am saying you are doing is cognitive dissonance. I am saying the dead money is not just the old people. The dead money IS the dead money. There are a lot of kids who have spend a load of money each year that are stone dead money. These people still insist on dressing the part with "all the gear and no idea".
The main event, for example, is just a fun event. nobody in their lifetime could ever reach their true roi and know they had done so. 1000s of people, young and old, play it with no true concept of variance. Probably loads play it with a concept of true variance but perhaps with inflated view of their own variance. Some have an exact calculation and play it for fun.
When you have a huge group of people playing events where even if they get their edge calculated correctly they may never see their correct roi then it means there are loads of fish. Even if they are all phil ivey there will be an impossible distribution of the money to rectify in lifetime.
What is annoying, and i think mr channing is saying similar but i obviously cant speak for him, is that when you are at a table full of kids, there are sometimes some fantastic players, however also there are more often delusional idiots without the ability or cognoscente to make a genuine attempt to calculate their true value within a poker tournaments or the value of others. To be dismissed immediately for being significantly older is laughable.
I think what you are doing vof, is when somebody says young players you immediately think of the pinnacle of young players and there are fairly sizable group of astonishing players at around the mid 20s mark. There are also a huge array of fish that go largely unnoticed around that mark too. They will be long term fish hopefully. If you plan to play poker in any way seriously you had better hope i am right.
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The next best thing to gambling and winning is gambling and losing.
-- Nick "The Greek" Dandalos |
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