call or fold?

[stowjon]

This is a hand that Matt played in the behemoth tourney after the team event at the w/end.

He would like to know what the general thoughts on his fold are, the details are 50 players in the tourney and this was when there was 34 left, avg stack was 26k. 8 get paid

both players had been playing fairly loose Matt had been playing fairly aggresive as he had been picking up good hands

I have told him i think that this is a call all day long.

what do you think?
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[StGilmore]

I would've called - couldn't help it. Even if I allow that they both miraculously have trips I call. Feels like SB re-raises the all-in with a wide range. And the original all-in could very well be 'this is NOT a p/f raiser's flop'...
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[barmybadger]

reluctant call hoping no ones got clubs
id check the flop too
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[stowjon]

i think the c bet on the flop is pretty standard Badger, why are you hoping noboby has clubs? you have the AcKc!
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"There's not enough hippies to save our lives, We need more hippies"

[barmybadger]

im happy c betting a good hand and bad hand. with a draw id rather check raise/call than be forced to fold to a raise. i dont play much holdem tho.
i dont want to see clubs out of play, i want the live outs.
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[darrensprengers]

snapaments
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[knifeboy62]

[stowjon]

i told him he had made a terrible lay down

wheres how it played out

seat 9 had 8c Jc
s/b had 3h 4s

turn came 7h
River came 7c

matt would have rivered the nut flush!

as it was he went on to bubble the f/table
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[The Dean]

In tournaments then you also need to be concerned with retaining tournament equity by staying alive. The pre-flop raise is pretty standard but when it gets called in two spots then you have to reassess. The flop c-bet could be a weak stab with any overs on a board that looks like it has missed large parts of both players ranges. It isn't a great board for a pre-flop raiser and so the J-8 hand has a lot of fold equity by pushing.

Obviously I don't know the players but you really don't want to be all in here and then have to draw out to win the pot.......not if you can help it. It all may look good on paper but if you are out then you are out......end of story. So I don't like the weak lead on the flop as both villains can shove with many hands here. I prefer checking and taking a free card if it is on offer or check-raising which could get the pot without a showdown or at least get it heads up so my outs were stronger and even ace high could be enough.

The call after the shove and call on the flop needs to be reluctantly made in my opinion but it isnt a great situation to be in when you have your entire tournament life on a handful of outs some of which are probably dead. The flop c-bet looks standard but it invites easy counter play and any shove can lead to you making a mistake by folding which is what happened here.


(as an edit......folding is not that big of a mistake when looked at in isolation and may not even be a mistake at all. By "mistake" then what I mean is playing the hand in such a way as to leave 7.4k of dead money in the middle without any chance of winning)
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[Josh Ivan]

[sleepingtom]

snap call then win the tournament. check raise flop is nice here too.

[hackett]

As soon as player two calls the all in then it has to be a call.

I also check the flop with two players - Not sure what the C Bet achieves on that flop with two callers of the original raise.
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[uh-hu]

id bet flop and call any other bet,get it on flop while u have 2 cards to come with nut draw and top2 over cards....

Continuation bet here might get them both to fold on the flop and pick up the pot without anymore action

check raise looks like AK so often.

if u had AA (to the people that check) would u still check on a 2club flop?

[X]

[Akish]

I think i would have checked the flop w a strong draw to nuts with two callers and hoped for a free card on the turn. In a tournament i think that the most important thing is to make the money and be very smart = selective, before you risk your entire stack outside the money. The player with a weaker flush draw is in my opinion little of a gambler in this particular spot. I would have called in the money all day long though. I think its not so much odds as to reads on the player in this spot. Well thats my thoughts on it.