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DA Lion
Straight
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:13 pm
Post subject: How should I have played this? |
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I won this hand but it just didnt feel right. If I dont post enough info, please ask and i'll fill in the blanks if I can.
Blinds 150/300.
My stack 12000 in the hijack
Villain stack 8000 in the BB
Action folded to me, I raise to 900 with AK off.
Folded to BB who raises to 2200 which I call.
Flop comes Q 5 Q rainbow.
Villain checks and I check behind.
Turn comes a 2 and the villain bets out 2200.
I shove and the villain insta calls with 44.
A lovely Ace turned up on the river and the villain busts and gives me glares.
I dont know why this dont quite feel right, I never felt in control while I was trying to control the pot size.
I didnt put the villain on a Q and thought he may be able to fold as AQ was close to what I was playing.
Love to here your thoughts. Feel free to have a go at my play if it needs it I am a big boy. It was a live game on about level 5 still about 55 players left from 69 starting
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fatshaft
Quads
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 2449
Location: Aberdeen
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:30 pm
Post subject: |
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| Ship pre. |
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stowjon
Royal Flush
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 7269
Location: willingham
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:36 pm
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yeah i pretty much hate your play
shove pre.
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Jokeslayer
Straight
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 277
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:59 pm
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OP: how are you controlling the pot by shoving the turn? Shoving the turn isn't horrible against the right type of villain and image (if he's aggressive enough to try to pick the pot up after you show weakness on the flop by not betting, and if you're aggressive/crazy enough to have non-premium hands a lot, so he can call with Ax on the turn, or at least b/f with them) but it doesn't acheive that at all. And you have to expect to get called pretty wide as there's not much on that board to represent. Most people aren't going to fold after putting in over a third of their stack.
What were the starting stacks? (Actually the relevant point is more like What was the chip average? but it's easy enough to work that out and you're more likely to know what the starting stack was)
EDIT: misread the HH
Last edited by Jokeslayer on Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DA Lion
Straight
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:19 pm
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I think the average was about 13k.
My thoughts were that he was trying to protect his BB which he had done on numerous occasions to that point.
My other views on the player was the he was quite straight forward, betting the hands he was happy with and check/raise folding when he was way off and met resistance.
I never considered shoving pre-flop but maybe a consideration however I would be more likely to do this with a made hand JJ QQ etc.
I believed that when he checked the flop it was because he did not hold a Q. However, I thought if I shove here it is pretty clear I dont have one, and I could not call a re-raise so thought a check here was my best option.
Therefore when I get a raise from the turn card, i put him on a bluff, maybe weaker A or lower pair which - maybe he folds (further thinking, I agree maybe not).
Those were my thoughts - my underlying feeling was I got this wrong but did not know the right answer?
Thanks for your time all.
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Bogus
At Won with No 28
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 4480
Location: Hendon (Deception Central)
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:23 pm
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| Jokeslayer wrote: | Shove pre is just horrible. I assume you guys are trying to be hilarious or hate money. Or are kind of stupid.
OP: how are you controlling the pot by shoving the turn? Shoving the turn isn't horrible against the right type of villain and image (if he's aggressive enough to try to pick the pot up after you show weakness on the flop by not betting, and if you're aggressive/crazy enough to have non-premium hands a lot, so he can call with Ax on the turn, or at least b/f with them) but it doesn't acheive that at all. And you have to expect to get called pretty wide as there's not much on that board to represent. Most people aren't going to fold after putting in over a third of their stack.
What were the starting stacks? (Actually the relevant point is more like What was the chip average? but it's easy enough to work that out and you're more likely to know what the starting stack was) |
I think they meant shove after the 2200 raise. Which would be correct. Unless you were planning on sitting there folding for another hour.
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Poker Jon
Quads
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 1627
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:36 pm
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Easy Shove pre-flop.
As played, bet pot on the flop and call a shove.
Either way you play it, you want to see all 5 cards. It's only 27BB effective |
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tommymac
Chip Collector
Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 2590
Location: walsall
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:45 pm
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| Jokeslayer wrote: | | Shove pre is just horrible. I assume you guys are trying to be hilarious or hate money. Or are kind of stupid. |
No a 4bet shove here is probably the best play, it cuts out any difficult post flop decisions, good chance of taking down a decent sized pot in relation to stack size and also unless the guy is a complete nit or unlucky he has KK or AA your at worst 50/50!
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darrensprengers
Misclick
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 6908
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:48 pm
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you played about as bad as it is to ply it on every street.
4 bet pre. 4 bet shove or call 5 bet
flop bet. if you dont bet even a monkey can rule out you having 66+
turn shove. after ruling out basically all 66+ hands and only leaving in AQ and all the other ace high air the turn shove is horrific. any decent player would snap call you with 44. or any pair for that matter.
you got pwned, you got lucky. way it goes sometimes
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DA Lion
Straight
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:02 pm
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I bow to your superior knowledge, I am quite happy to admit my game is lacking here somewhat.
BUT, I thought I was playing (post flop) to represent the Q. Maybe it is totally horrible and/or it may have worked out better with deeper stacks.
Certainly recognise I put myself in a very difficult situation which I shall work at avoiding in the future.
Appreciate all the feedback.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Maybe I am playing too many DoNs which is affecting my play in other areas or (maybe I am just that horrible.
Thanks tho
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Pizzicato
Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 3063
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:24 pm
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| darrensprengers wrote: | you played about as bad as it is to ply it on every street.
4 bet pre. 4 bet shove or call 5 bet
flop bet. if you dont bet even a monkey can rule out you having 66+
turn shove. after ruling out basically all 66+ hands and only leaving in AQ and all the other ace high air the turn shove is horrific. any decent player would snap call you with 44. or any pair for that matter.
you got pwned, you got lucky. way it goes sometimes |
Couldn't really put it much better lol |
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DA Lion
Straight
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:32 pm
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Come on credit where it is due.
Initial raise to 900 was brilliant. 
Always love a starting point to build on.
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Jokeslayer
Straight
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 277
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:32 pm
Post subject: |
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| tommymac wrote: | | Jokeslayer wrote: | | Shove pre is just horrible. I assume you guys are trying to be hilarious or hate money. Or are kind of stupid. |
No a 4bet shove here is probably the best play, it cuts out any difficult post flop decisions, good chance of taking down a decent sized pot in relation to stack size and also unless the guy is a complete nit or unlucky he has KK or AA your at worst 50/50! |
Sorry, I misread the HH and missed the rr. Yeah, shove pre. |
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darrensprengers
Misclick
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 6908
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:32 pm
Post subject: |
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| DA Lion wrote: | I bow to your superior knowledge, I am quite happy to admit my game is lacking here somewhat.
BUT, I thought I was playing (post flop) to represent the Q. Maybe it is totally horrible and/or it may have worked out better with deeper stacks.
Certainly recognise I put myself in a very difficult situation which I shall work at avoiding in the future.
Appreciate all the feedback.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Maybe I am playing too many DoNs which is affecting my play in other areas or (maybe I am just that horrible.
Thanks tho |
ok then let me ask you this. when you made your turn shove what was the range your believed he would fold?
what were you stats and flop aggression to make you think this is how you represent a q. how many hands had you played with the guy to be certain he would know your bet sizing and frequencies well enough to make the fold that you believe he should of made on the turn?
how do you expect him to fold on the turn after committing such a high % of his chips.
i have just realised this is live so i guess you can add in the i am phil ivey i want to make a hero fold syndrome. he should not be and clearly was not bet folding the turn.
you need to pay more attention to stack sizes and psr. Also plan hands from beginning to end. on the flop you should of realised he cant bet/fold the turn.
What you can do is add in a bluff range that he stabs with on the turn and you are value shoving and hoping he is Ae Jones and with range merge some worse Ace high calls so it makes a profit.
but seriously just shove pre when you get 3 bet and they have c27 effective. its about as standard as tournament poker gets
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Pizzicato
Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 3063
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:40 pm
Post subject: |
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| DA Lion wrote: | Come on credit where it is due.
Initial raise to 900 was brilliant.
Always love a starting point to build on. |
As long as any other open raises you make during that blind level is also 900  |
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