Profit & Loss !!

[ukpoker]

I've enjoyed, like most people, reading about the MOB's adventures across the pond in America and all the tournaments they're playing in.

What I'd be VERY interested in knowing though is whether the 60+ tournament schedule produces a profit or loss at the end of the day.

After all with buy-ins, travel expenses and hotels etc all multiplied by 4 I wonder just if this kind of schedule is fun, from a financial point of view, or just plain insanity on the part of your wallet.

Leaving all the sponsorship aside just is it possible to do this kind of travelling, enter 60 tournaments, and make any money doing it or is this one way of doing your brains in as speedier way as possible?

So I'd like to see, included at the end of each leg of the tour, a +/- column giving us, the readers, an actual REAL indication of success or failure of this 60 event diary.

What do others think?

Mark S.

[Simon Galloway]

Are you sure jealousy/resentment aren't one of your driving forces here????

The mob have earned themselves a ground-breaking sponsorship deal :- they are clearly + on the P&L sheet. I'm sure they have some contractual obligations to fulfil in return for the sponsorship, but they have achieved something that, to my knowledge, no-one else has. The door is open in the world of free enterprise for everyone to try.

Prima Poker obvioulsy believe the positive exposure is worth the cost or they wouldn't have entered into the agreement.

In terms of P&L for a worldwide tour, it is widely acknowledged that a lot of top tourney players aren't able to cover the considerable overheads consistently and with any amount of confidence. Quite a few have been quite open and candid about the fact that they haven't made a carrot (after X's)in the last year or two.

You know how much it costs to fly/play/stay and the winnings are all reported, so there is nothing to stop you keeping a rough tally. (rebuys/top-ups would be an unkown admitedly) The 4Queens is not a major leg of the tour so despite their good start, I would imagine that the overall tour will show little (if any) collective profit.

I hope I'm wrong.

--Previous Message--

: I've enjoyed, like most people, reading about the MOB's adventures across the
: pond in America and all the tournaments they're playing in.
:
: What I'd be VERY interested in knowing though is whether the 60+ tournament
: schedule produces a profit or loss at the end of the day.
:
: After all with buy-ins, travel expenses and hotels etc all multiplied by 4 I
: wonder just if this kind of schedule is fun, from a financial point of view, or
: just plain insanity on the part of your wallet.
:
: Leaving all the sponsorship aside just is it possible to do this kind of
: travelling, enter 60 tournaments, and make any money doing it or is this one way
: of doing your brains in as speedier way as possible?
:
: So I'd like to see, included at the end of each leg of the tour, a +/- column
: giving us, the readers, an actual REAL indication of success or failure of this
: 60 event diary.
:
: What do others think?

(...)
_________________
www.teammoshman.com

[Mark]

It's a shame there are no archives for this
forum as Simon Trumper (I think) posted an
article detailing this from his perspective.
If I recall correctly, he won a reasonable amount
but barely broke even once expenses were
factored in.

Mark.

--Previous Message--

: Are you sure jealousy/resentment aren't one of your driving forces here????
:
: The mob have earned themselves a ground-breaking sponsorship deal :- they are
: clearly + on the P&L sheet. I'm sure they have some contractual obligations to
: fulfil in return for the sponsorship, but they have achieved something that, to
: my knowledge, no-one else has. The door is open in the world of free enterprise
: for everyone to try.
:
: Prima Poker obvioulsy believe the positive exposure is worth the cost or they
: wouldn't have entered into the agreement.
:
: In terms of P&L for a worldwide tour, it is widely acknowledged that a lot of
: top tourney players aren't able to cover the considerable overheads consistently
: and with any amount of confidence. Quite a few have been quite open and candid
: about the fact that they haven't made a carrot (after X's)in the last year or
: two.
:
: You know how much it costs to fly/play/stay and the winnings are all reported,
: so there is nothing to stop you keeping a rough tally. (rebuys/top-ups would be

(...)

[Kevin Hutchins]

There is now a search featute but I believe that this only works since the inception of the new forum. All messages since new forum are still there.

Nice one Mob.




--Previous Message--

: It's a shame there are no archives for this
: forum as Simon Trumper (I think) posted an
: article detailing this from his perspective.
: If I recall correctly, he won a reasonable amount
: but barely broke even once expenses were
: factored in.
:
: Mark.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Are you sure jealousy/resentment aren't one of your driving forces here????
:
: The mob have earned themselves a ground-breaking sponsorship deal :- they are
: clearly + on the P&L sheet. I'm sure they have some contractual obligations
: to
: fulfil in return for the sponsorship, but they have achieved something that,
: to
: my knowledge, no-one else has. The door is open in the world of free

(...)
_________________
Kev

[Simon Galloway]

Simon did indeed put up a great post - which I applauded for the frank and refreshingly honest exposure of his circumstance. Also at the time, Nolan Dalla wrote a great article on some of the "low-life" antics that he had had the misfortune to witness (such as selling 300% of yourself..)

I play the occasional event on "the circuit" but never the main events. Even so, that has given me enough exposure to desperate antics - well-known players included. Walking proof that the high entry fees + considerable expense are very difficult to overcome for all but the very best and those lucky enough to win a big tourny with few attempts. It is quite conceivable that a very good player could go so undeservedly long without a major score that they run into bankroll problems. You need a fair wedge to afford not to cash in $10k events...

It seems to me that perhaps several players have fallen into the trap of feeling obliged to enter the biggest events - and there are enough events to wipe you out if you don't get results quickly. Any barren patch could be terminal for your wallet.

$10/20 online with beers from your fridge is the way forward.....



--Previous Message--

: It's a shame there are no archives for this
: forum as Simon Trumper (I think) posted an
: article detailing this from his perspective.
: If I recall correctly, he won a reasonable amount
: but barely broke even once expenses were
: factored in.
:
: Mark.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Are you sure jealousy/resentment aren't one of your driving forces here????
:
: The mob have earned themselves a ground-breaking sponsorship deal :- they are
: clearly + on the P&L sheet. I'm sure they have some contractual obligations
: to
: fulfil in return for the sponsorship, but they have achieved something that,
: to
: my knowledge, no-one else has. The door is open in the world of free

(...)
_________________
www.teammoshman.com

[Mark]

--Previous Message--

: Simon did indeed put up a great post - which I applauded for the frank and
: refreshingly honest exposure of his circumstance. Also at the time, Nolan Dalla
: wrote a great article on some of the "low-life" antics that he had had the
: misfortune to witness (such as selling 300% of yourself..)

Yeah I read that and it was quite depressing.
He seemed pretty jaded at that point.
If anyone is interested it's here:
http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/dalla27.htm

: $10/20 online with beers from your fridge is the way forward.....

Amen to that!

Post Edited (1/10/2003, 5:53 pm)

[Derringer]

Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also has comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a "hobby", I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6 games would never cover them.

LUCKILY: I am in a great business [oil & gas, where real men gamble] that keeps me travelling to many places that have poker venues, like California and Louisiana. And I have booked so many frequent flyer and hotel stay points, that often I travel for free. Last trip to Gardena, CA was free on tickets and hotel. Upcoming November trip to Vegas is also free airfare.

Yup, it's a great life. Most men want to be me...most women want to be WITH me.

Cheers.

--Previous Message--

: --Previous Message--
:
: Simon did indeed put up a great post - which I applauded for the frank and
: refreshingly honest exposure of his circumstance. Also at the time, Nolan
: Dalla
: wrote a great article on some of the "low-life" antics that he had had the
: misfortune to witness (such as selling 300% of yourself..)
:
: Yeah I read that and it was quite depressing.
: He seemed pretty jaded at that point.
: If anyone is interested it's here:
: http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/dalla27.htm
:
: $10/20 online with beers from your fridge is the way forward.....
:
: Amen to that!
:
: Post Edited (1/10/2003, 5:53 pm)

[Basil Brush]

What an arse!!

--Previous Message--

: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also has
: comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a "hobby",
: I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like
: Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6 games
: would never cover them.
:
: LUCKILY: I am in a great business [oil & gas, where real men gamble] that
: keeps me travelling to many places that have poker venues, like California and
: Louisiana. And I have booked so many frequent flyer and hotel stay points, that
: often I travel for free. Last trip to Gardena, CA was free on tickets and
: hotel. Upcoming November trip to Vegas is also free airfare.
:
: Yup, it's a great life. Most men want to be me...most women want to be WITH
: me.
:
: Cheers.
:

(...)

[Simon Galloway]

This sponsorship all boils down to:

The mob are winners, Prima are winners.

The only losers are those that waste their time bitching about someone else's success.

Even for the "this has no benefit for me" brigade should stop and realise that companies like Prima will be responsible for sending satellite winners (probably) to tournaments, thus making a contribution to supporting the main events and largely with dead money also. (Moneymaker may beg to differ..)

Whilst personal sponsorship may not directly line other player's pockets, it is only one step removed from sponsorship being more commonplace and sponsor-added prize pools. Then all the whingers have to do to get a tangible benefit from it is to shut up and concentrate on finishing in the money.

--Previous Message--

: What an arse!!
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also
: has
: comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a
: "hobby",
: I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like
: Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6
: games
: would never cover them.
:
: LUCKILY: I am in a great business [oil & gas, where real men gamble] that
: keeps me travelling to many places that have poker venues, like California
: and
: Louisiana. And I have booked so many frequent flyer and hotel stay points,

(...)
_________________
www.teammoshman.com

[Derringer]

KMA!

--Previous Message--

: What an arse!!
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also
: has
: comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a
: "hobby",
: I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like
: Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6
: games
: would never cover them.
:
: LUCKILY: I am in a great business [oil & gas, where real men gamble] that
: keeps me travelling to many places that have poker venues, like California
: and
: Louisiana. And I have booked so many frequent flyer and hotel stay points,

(...)

[Strange]

Yes.

--Previous Message--

: What an arse!!
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also
: has
: comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a
: "hobby",
: I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like
: Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6
: games
: would never cover them.
:
: LUCKILY: I am in a great business [oil & gas, where real men gamble] that
: keeps me travelling to many places that have poker venues, like California
: and
: Louisiana. And I have booked so many frequent flyer and hotel stay points,

(...)

[Derringer]

This must be jealousy. Since you and your colleague are into name calling now. You can both KMA!

Cheers.

--Previous Message--

: Yes.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: What an arse!!
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also
: has
: comments on the play for a particular sitting. However, since this is a
: "hobby",
: I do not count the travel expenses as I would expect the professionals [like
: Mob] do, and even if I did track expenses, my low-limit $1-2, $3-4, $3-6
: games
: would never cover them.
:

(...)

[seventwo]

First of all I respect the Mob and believe the Prima sponsorship can only be a good thing for poker as a whole. However, I do think that it's deceptive to have tournament records and leader boards for the major events, showing what the pros have won, but not what they've spent on buy-ins, re-buys and top-ups. People back pros based on their results, often without knowing their losses. If you were buying shares in a company you'd be interested in their profit, rather than their revenue. I don't believe we need to know about overheads, that's irrelevant to all but players themselves. I'm also not denying that the Mob and other tournament pros are excellent players, but that doesn't mean they are going to make a profit at big buy-in tourneys, when you consider the variance involved.

--Previous Message--

: This must be jealousy. Since you and your colleague are into name calling
: now. You can both KMA!
:
: Cheers.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Yes.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: What an arse!!
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Well, for us "non-professional" and "beginners" I recommend and do keep a log
: [spreadsheet] of my wins and losses, and expenses related to the learning of
: poker. These are expenses like books, software, etc. The spreadsheet also
: has

(...)

[Simon Galloway]

I have read stories of players entering $5k events to while away the hours until the juicy side action starts up. They then find themselves in a situation where they "need" to bust out of the tourney to get back to the far more profitable ring game that won't get reported on.

How do you factor that into an annual tourney P&L???

--Previous Message--

: First of all I respect the Mob and believe the Prima sponsorship can only be a
: good thing for poker as a whole. However, I do think that it's deceptive to
: have tournament records and leader boards for the major events, showing what the
: pros have won, but not what they've spent on buy-ins, re-buys and top-ups.
: People back pros based on their results, often without knowing their losses. If
: you were buying shares in a company you'd be interested in their profit, rather
: than their revenue. I don't believe we need to know about overheads, that's
: irrelevant to all but players themselves. I'm also not denying that the Mob and
: other tournament pros are excellent players, but that doesn't mean they are
: going to make a profit at big buy-in tourneys, when you consider the variance
: involved.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: This must be jealousy. Since you and your colleague are into name calling
: now. You can both KMA!
:
: Cheers.
:

(...)
_________________
www.teammoshman.com

[steveyboy]

When I hear stories like this I have never really believed them. To make it sensible to effectively throw away a $5k entry fee the cash game would have to be absolutely massive and very easy, especially when you take into account the variance involved in the cash game and the possible losses.

Do such profitable cash games actually ever exist, and if so why bother advertising your poker skills in large tournaments?



--Previous Message--

: I have read stories of players entering $5k events to while away the hours
: until the juicy side action starts up. They then find themselves in a situation
: where they "need" to bust out of the tourney to get back to the far more
: profitable ring game that won't get reported on.
:
: How do you factor that into an annual tourney P&L???
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: First of all I respect the Mob and believe the Prima sponsorship can only be
: a
: good thing for poker as a whole. However, I do think that it's deceptive to
: have tournament records and leader boards for the major events, showing what
: the
: pros have won, but not what they've spent on buy-ins, re-buys and top-ups.
: People back pros based on their results, often without knowing their losses.
: If
: you were buying shares in a company you'd be interested in their profit,
: rather

(...)