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seventwo
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:30 am
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This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser then announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise, the 2 is an under-raise, you can only call it". As I was hosting and marginally more informed than some players there (that ain't sayin' much) everyone turned to me and asked what I thought, to which my reply was "err...umm...well". Anyone know the answer to this one?
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:49 am
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I'd say no, The original raiser cannot raise, nor can the button.

Different card rooms come down differently on this issue. I know Jon Shoreman's poker room has the rule that if the underraise is more than 50% of the previous raise it can be re-raised, but not if its any less.

My favoured rule would be that if if the re-raise is any less than the original raise, neither the raiser nor anybody who has called the original raise can re-raise again, they can only call or fold.

Dylan



--Previous Message--

: This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is
: PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who
: raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser then
: announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise, the
: 2 is an under-raise, you can only call it". As I was hosting and marginally
: more informed than some players there (that ain't sayin' much) everyone turned
: to me and asked what I thought, to which my reply was "err...umm...well".
: Anyone know the answer to this one?
seventwo
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:11 pm
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Thanks for the response. The re-raise wasn't allowed on this occassion, so I can rest easy that the right thing was done.

--Previous Message--

: I'd say no, The original raiser cannot raise, nor can the button.
:
: Different card rooms come down differently on this issue. I know Jon
: Shoreman's poker room has the rule that if the underraise is more than 50% of
: the previous raise it can be re-raised, but not if its any less.
:
: My favoured rule would be that if if the re-raise is any less than the
: original raise, neither the raiser nor anybody who has called the original raise
: can re-raise again, they can only call or fold.
:
: Dylan
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is
: PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who
: raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser
: then
: announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise,

(...)
Mark S.
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:20 pm
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Whilst the "original" raiser could not have re-raised the pot any players who have not yet acted (i.e checked or bet) COULD have reraised the pot.

e.g Full table of players button on seat 4.

Seat 5 checks, seat 6 checks, seat 7 goes "all-in" for 5, seat 8 goes all-in for 5+2.

Seats 9, 1, 2, 3 & 4 can STILL RERAISE the pot as they have not acted yet. Seats 5 & 6 CANNOT reraise the pot, only call.


--Previous Message--

: This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is
: PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who
: raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser then
: announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise, the
: 2 is an under-raise, you can only call it". As I was hosting and marginally
: more informed than some players there (that ain't sayin' much) everyone turned
: to me and asked what I thought, to which my reply was "err...umm...well".
: Anyone know the answer to this one?
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:02 pm
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I don't agree with this version of the rule at all Mark.

Why should seats 5 and 6 not be allowed to re-raise here? This makes no sense. The only person whom the under-raise rule should affect in your example is seat 7 (OK. I know he has no chips. But if he did, he should be the only person that isn't allowed the re-raise.)

What if the person in seat 5 liked his flop and checked with the intention of check-raising? Why does seat 8's under raise affect him?

Let's say seat 7 had more chips that the fiver he originally bet. I would contend that he's the only one not allowed to re-raise.

Dylan


--Previous Message--

: Whilst the "original" raiser could not have re-raised the pot any players who
: have not yet acted (i.e checked or bet) COULD have reraised the pot.
:
: e.g Full table of players button on seat 4.
:
: Seat 5 checks, seat 6 checks, seat 7 goes "all-in" for 5, seat 8 goes all-in
: for 5+2.
:
: Seats 9, 1, 2, 3 & 4 can STILL RERAISE the pot as they have not acted yet.
: Seats 5 & 6 CANNOT reraise the pot, only call.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is
: PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who
: raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser
: then
: announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise,
: the

(...)

Post Edited (27/9/2003, 5:03 pm)
steveyboy
Straight


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:48 pm
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I agree with what you have said Dylan,

Heres a situation i was involved on VC poker where I believe I lost a pot because they hadn't programmed their software properly. Unfortunatly the online help didnt seem to know much about poker so after a couple of hours explaining the problem i gave up in frustration...

The game was no Limit Holdem and i was playing on the button (seat 9) the blinds were called all the way round to me and I raised $5 which was about the size of the pot. Seats 2,3 and 5 called the raise and then seat 8 went all-in in for an extra $2. As this was an under raise I was unable to raise again so just called. Now something I thought was funny happened seats 2 and 3 called the $2 and then seat 5 went all-in for a large (compared to pot) sum of about $50. Now I thought this wouldnt be allowed as seat 5 had also been under raised, surely he could only call or fold!?

What then happened was everyone folded and the pot was played heads up between seat 8 and seat 5. Seat 5 had been playing a pair of kings so I was a little upset to see that my ace would have been paired on the flop!

Am I wrong to think that something wrong had happened here??

steveyboy


--Previous Message--

: I don't agree with this version of the rule at all Mark.
:
: Why should seats 5 and 6 not be allowed to re-raise here? This makes no sense.
: The only person whom the under-raise rule should affect in your example is seat
: 7 (OK. I know he has no chips. But if he did, he should be the only person that
: isn't allowed the re-raise.)
:
: What if the person in seat 5 liked his flop and checked with the intention of
: check-raising? Why does seat 8's under raise affect him?
:
: Let's say seat 7 had more chips that the fiver he originally bet. I would
: contend that he's the only one not allowed to re-raise.
:
: Dylan
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Whilst the "original" raiser could not have re-raised the pot any players

(...)
Joe The Elegance Beevers
Mobster


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:42 pm
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In no-limit the situation is quite simple. An underaise does not reopen the action. It looks like Mark has tried to explain it correctly but has just got his numbers mixed up. If Jon Shoreman's online site allows the action to reopen when the raise is half the bet or more then they have probably based their program on the common limit poker rule. That is not the correct rule for No Limit.

The answer to the original post is no the re-raise is not allowed.

However if a player has not acted yet or the action is live again to someone that has acted as is Mark's example and Dylan's correction when the first two players check, the next bets and the next underraises. In that situation of course the first two players ARE allowed to reraise as the bettor (not the raiser) has reopened the action to them. The bettor however cannot reraise unless someelse makes a proper raise before it gets back to him.

In limit however if the raise is half or more it usually counts as a full raise for betting purposes.

Pot limit is treated the same as no limit.






--Previous Message--

: This situation arised when I was hosting a home cash game last week. Game is
: PLHE and blinds are 1/2. Pre-flop folded to player in middle position, who
: raises 5. Button calls and BB goes all-in for 2 more. Original raiser then
: announces "re-raise the pot", to which button protests "you can't re-raise, the
: 2 is an under-raise, you can only call it". As I was hosting and marginally
: more informed than some players there (that ain't sayin' much) everyone turned
: to me and asked what I thought, to which my reply was "err...umm...well".
: Anyone know the answer to this one?
kay
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:51 pm
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hi all,
in this situation the only players who can raise the under-raise are the players who have not yet called the original raise.ie.player in seat 1 raises seats 3,4 and 5 call seat 6 calls and under-raises seats 7,8,9 and 10 can re-raise however seats 1,3,4 and 5 can only call unless seats 7,8,9 and 10 have re-raised thus opening the betting back up. However in some casino/home games ect u can only under-raise if there is only 2 players left.hope this is helpful.

thx kay
--Previous Message--

: I agree with what you have said Dylan,
:
: Heres a situation i was involved on VC poker where I believe I lost a pot
: because they hadn't programmed their software properly. Unfortunatly the online
: help didnt seem to know much about poker so after a couple of hours explaining
: the problem i gave up in frustration...
:
: The game was no Limit Holdem and i was playing on the button (seat 9) the
: blinds were called all the way round to me and I raised $5 which was about the
: size of the pot. Seats 2,3 and 5 called the raise and then seat 8 went all-in in
: for an extra $2. As this was an under raise I was unable to raise again so just
: called. Now something I thought was funny happened seats 2 and 3 called the $2
: and then seat 5 went all-in for a large (compared to pot) sum of about $50. Now
: I thought this wouldnt be allowed as seat 5 had also been under raised, surely
: he could only call or fold!?
:
: What then happened was everyone folded and the pot was played heads up between
: seat 8 and seat 5. Seat 5 had been playing a pair of kings so I was a little
: upset to see that my ace would have been paired on the flop!

(...)
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