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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3123
Location: with position on you
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:27 am
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| PokerSensation wrote: | | knifeboy62 wrote: | fold or shove. It's too close to say which is better in this spot, assuming your image is solid too.
Given how close it is I am shoving because that can only help me take advantage of my image later, if called, and assuming I am staying around for a while. |
This.
I shove.
If you are folding this 6 handed you will get raped. Unless the game is passive, people only re-raising with monsters etc.
The button could be betting here with a marginal hand, or a pp. As long as it isn't a game where it is obvious people are only doing this with monsters, it is such a negative ev to do anything but shove here. |
This is not necessarily a six handed game......we cannot automatically assume this just because of three folds. There has to be correct adjustments from the remaining players for this to be the case.
No good player is going to "get raped" as you call it folding Q-Q in a vacuum because they will adjust based on having more data. The players that get "raped" at higher levels tend to be those that generalise and play every hand in an "automated" way without adjustment. Passive lines within a single hand are next to meaningless when taken in isolation and does not reflect a passive game overall. |
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Alex B
Straight Flush
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2780
Location: London
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| PokerSensation wrote: | | knifeboy62 wrote: | fold or shove. It's too close to say which is better in this spot, assuming your image is solid too.
Given how close it is I am shoving because that can only help me take advantage of my image later, if called, and assuming I am staying around for a while. |
This.
I shove.
If you are folding this 6 handed you will get raped. Unless the game is passive, people only re-raising with monsters etc.
The button could be betting here with a marginal hand, or a pp. As long as it isn't a game where it is obvious people are only doing this with monsters, it is such a negative ev to do anything but shove here. |
These sound like online considerations. The live games aren't tough enough to worry too much about thin value (as Dean said), and the sessions aren't long enough for anyone to adjust to an overly tight fold-to-3bet %.
I think that the same post in which I said it almost can't ever be a fold shows that it is thin for value too. Overall I agree with The Dean that avoiding tilt etc probably clinches it, so I'd do whichever I feel better about.
I 4-bet-called and lost to KK. I was too tired at 4.30am to figure this out, and had conflicting intuition between knowing I should be able to get this in how I used to play, but also having a strong feeling he had KK+ whever he calls, and its a fair proportion of the time.
I'll fold next time, but after the hand I was annoyed I made a mistake, and now I'm happy it was thin enough not too worry about.
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3123
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| Alex B wrote: |
So if we are getting it in pre we just need the most extra-bet inducing line. Probably shoving into some people to get snapped off by lower pairs, and min-4betting some people to get shoved over by AJ/67s.
This could even get a miracle fold from KK from some players, since they very rarely see someone shove 200bbs, in that case 'bluff' shoving sounds great. (Is that a range-merging 2-way bet  ? ) I guess there had to be a good reason we played like this back in the online days. |
I think there are many potential pit falls moving from online NL400 to live games and especially when moving from online NL400 six max to live full ring. They are so different although I don't have much experience playing six max recently or playing live for that matter. If the live games are softer as people keep telling me then I cannot see that they are softer in certain areas and one such area is how they stack off when 200bb deep.
Pre-flop is the simple part of the game and this is not where our edge will lay as a rule when this deep and stacks get all in pre. For example (maybe I am way off) but I cannot see anyone in a live $1-$2 shoving over a min-4bet with AJ/76s and so for me the line is invalid if done for that purpose.
In NL100 ring online then you will sometimes get hero folds against 4-bet/shoves with KK but once again I cannot comprehend that will be the case in a "softer" live game. So bluffing Q-Q fails as a bluff in this instance because no better hand folds if nobody hero folds KK. As for value shoving then once again just cannot see the typical live player calling with worse but having said that, I am not there and Alex is but just seems counter intuitive to me but the range merging 2-way concept seems invalid because I just don't see that shoving achieves enough fold equity or value.
As we agreed though, too marginal to worry about when looked at in a vacuum but what I said earlier regarding me not liking the pre-flop flat of the £61 three bet needs re-consideration. The more I think about it then flatting has many advantages. We don't isolate ourselves against KK+ when we four bet/shove and get called. If we flat and the opener four bets then they have confimed that we are facing KK+ from at least one of these players and we get away with a 30bb loss.
Flatting increases the implied odds for the two fish to come along and if one does so then our implied odds increase. We can use our effective position here if we flop a set as there is likely to be action to our left. With 200bb effective stacks then flatting could win us a huge pot and we can set mine here a fair percentage of the time and Q-Q stacks up well against the openers range, the flatters range and the lower parts of the three bettors range and so we will get value from many hands that they could be holding that our Q-Q beats.
Also by flatting tehn it gives us the chance to cooler not just a bigger pair but also smaller pocket pairs with set over set situations without us getting trapped with an overpair because fit or fold represents a fair part of our strategy. Coup de grace is that we avoid that horrible spot of not being able to 4-bet/shove for value or as a bluff and having to fold a hand with very good equity potential. |
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Alex B
Straight Flush
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2780
Location: London
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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I am minding calling less after more thought. If opener or 1st caller shoved and 3 bettor folds it would be a call though.
Re. 'bluffing' QQ, I know you rarely (/never) get called by better or fold out worse - the maths was to show that if he has enough 3-betting combo's we could shove and literally turn our hand face-up profitably, so shoving must be ok, its like an STT GTO thing.
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3123
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| Alex B wrote: | | If opener or 1st caller shoved and 3 bettor folds it would be a call though. |
I know you said they were fishy but what led you to believe that you could call with 170bb as an 82-18 if opener 4-bet shoves after you flat? Do you think they shove wider than KK+?
I am stabbing in the dark here and comparing this game to a FR NL100 could lead to me being way off obviously and being too nitty. |
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Alex B
Straight Flush
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2780
Location: London
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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You're overestimating drunk Spaniards.
He has a 50%+ RFI range and his 4-bet-shoving range is going to include Q2o 'restealing a squeeze' often enough.
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The Dean
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3123
Location: with position on you
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| Alex B wrote: | You're overestimating drunk Spaniards.
He has a 50%+ RFI range and his 4-bet-shoving range is going to include Q2o 'restealing a squeeze' often enough. |
OK
I guess the dynamic shifts a whole lot at 4.30a.m in the morning after introducing drunk Spaniards into the mix. |
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Uibhist a tuath
Trips
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 158
Location: Glasgow, UK
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet |
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| Drunk Spaniards are the wages. |
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