Live 1-2 QQ in SB after a 3bet

[Alex B]

I haven't played much recently, just a few live sessions in the year, so I don't have too much idea of 'standard' frequencies in that context. So opinions welcome from any regular live players.

Stacks about 400, full table dealt in.

3 folds, raise to 13, call, (these 2 are deep and fishy, flatting big raises pre-flop), fold, button raises to 61 (tightish player but looks solid enough that this range isn't simple).

I have QQ in the SB, action?

Online in 2010 (at 2/4, similar bets and stacks) this would be an easy 4b-call or maybe a shove, we actually are 6-handed here with 3 folds under the gun, and solid online players would be 3betting the fish liberally from the button.

Live I don't really know how much of that is true, and there is no dynamic in which anyone has any idea if I can ever bluff 4-bet or how wide anyone's ranges really are.

Given that, I hate the stack sizes, and don't like any of the options.
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[TheBlueBoy]

If the button knows (as you do) that the raiser and flatter like to play atc, then maybe he's just trying to pick up the dead money and most of the time he will. I'm raising here every time.

[Alex B]

[Bogus]

Or raise shoving.
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Update TBC

[darrensprengers]

i think my brain just exploded trying to work out what i would do. what a horrible spot.
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[Alex B]

I just realised there is one limit solution... If button's range is wide enough to 'bluff shove' and pick up the £90 when he never calls wider than AK,KK+, then folding can't be an option.

Against an AK,KK+ calling range its 60/40, so we get back 320ish meaning we are risking 80 to win 90 - so we need 47% folds. He has 28 combos of calls, so if he 3-bets 60+ combos it can't be a fold.

Against a KK+ caller (maybe more realistic) its 82/18, so we get back 144ish meaning we are risking 256 to win 90 - so we need 74% folds. He has 12 combos of calls, so if he 3-bets 48+ combos it can't be a fold.

Given AJ+ is 40 and JJ+ is 19, getting the stack in doesn't seem as dodgy as I initially thought unless its a miss-read and his range is super tight (possible). And its almost always better to have wider aggression ranges when its borderline.

So if we are getting it in pre we just need the most extra-bet inducing line. Probably shoving into some people to get snapped off by lower pairs, and min-4betting some people to get shoved over by AJ/67s.

This could even get a miracle fold from KK from some players, since they very rarely see someone shove 200bbs, in that case 'bluff' shoving sounds great. (Is that a range-merging 2-way bet ? ) I guess there had to be a good reason we played like this back in the online days.
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[The Dean]

[The Dean]

Just realised the first raiser didn't come from early position. Even allowing for his slightly expanded range then he is still a fish who has raised from middle position and a tight player has three bet. In the absence of more information then we don't need to almost "level" ourselves here when what is more important is to balance our individual decision making processes with other equally important game dynamics.

I hate hands like these because they don't really answer anything and there are certainly strong meta game reasons for folding and I have absolutely no problem with that.

[Seb]

Shove.

[knifeboy62]

fold or shove. It's too close to say which is better in this spot, assuming your image is solid too.

Given how close it is I am shoving because that can only help me take advantage of my image later, if called, and assuming I am staying around for a while.
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[Bogus]

amirite
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Update TBC

[TheBlueBoy]

[morracey]

This is obviously a horrible spot to be in but straight away you can ignore anyone who suggests a call or a small raise these are never an option here!! It is all-in or fold.

If you call there are still the two fish to act, and if they like to play as much as you say they do will probably call. Qs four ways is not in good shape!

It's also a time(one of the very few) where I think the maths is irrelevant, its all about instinct. Without a good enough read on the table you should fold and wait for a better, simpler spot. You have more than enough behind you. But if you think there's a chance that the tighter players range might be wider than usual because of the players in and his position then shove. I think I would be inclined to fold and watch the hand and the buttons reactions closely.

[The Dean]

[PokerSensation]