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stowjon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:53 pm
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http://www.bluff.com/news/joe-hachem-...amp-legacy-51589/

after watching this interview i agree with the point that poker is becoming less fun for average Joe.


Last edited by stowjon on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:39 pm
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i dont think he meant destroyed the wsop. he is saying destroying poker in general.

I am finally glad someone famous and worth listening to is saying what i have been saying since about 2008.
The steady influx of egotistical, cognitively dissonant, aggressive young players would slowly but surely stop and even reverse the growth of poker.

You need to have life experiences to be able to deal with the roller coaster ride of poker and i can honestly say that it took me a while to get over that initial period of finding fault with everyone else except yourself or even beginning to not let bad beats affect you.

Neil Channing said the same as this a few years ago and i think nearly everyone agreed in his thread.

I have seen both sides of the coin. I have played against lads (not just young lads to be fair) in a 50 tournament that openly deride everything i did before i even did it. They would say things like i cant raise this river as anyone over 25 cant fold. When i 4 bet they say things like you have polarized your range like you would in the 90s. I started playing poker in 2007 so cant really comment on that.

It does not bother me and i guess irritating people would argue it puts people on tilt and they play worse. The problem is a few times like that and they will play worse in that session and maybe another one but eventually they have that conversation with themselves of wtf am i doing playing this game and stop donating or trying to improve.

These are the two most used sayings in poker and i will use them yet again.
1) You can shear a sheep for its whole life but skin it only once.
2) A young bull and his dad are at the top of a hill look over a herd of cows and the young ball says "Dad lets run down and f**k one of those cows", his dad calmly answers " No son, lets walk down and F**k all of them".

In a mathematical sense of game theory and even nashs equilibrium theory would seem to indicate that a mutual beneficial long term relationship should be attempted rather than a direct smash and grab.

i don't think the other end of the spectrum is buying them food and drink to stay at the table but it is precisely this that Las Vegas do. I do think that learning not to be an irritating, self righteous, arrogant, misinformed, little prick is something that will benefit you far more than just in poker.

Being annoying and this particularly applies to mid-range players and berating worse players than yourself is basically voluntarily digging your own grave and then moaning about it.
DropTheHammer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:25 pm
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Very well said Darren. Those two sayings are so true, the problem is poker is full of ego-maniacs who love to berrate anyone playing different (note not always worse) poker than themselves.

In a casino i used to play in it was awful; the idiot local/regs would barrack anyone new who came to the game, trying to find fault/belittle them. All it did was stop them coming back which resulted in the player numbers stagnating. The GUKPT tour soon dried up and I for one won't be returning to watch them soft playing their best mates and bullying people to give bubble savers and do deals when at the final table.
dwh103
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:14 pm
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Can't stand Hachem, he's not immune to condescending needling of fish himself. I'm sure they love it though because he was 'world champion'. Has a point with the conduct of poker players in general, but can't really take him too seriously compared with someone like Channing.

Just very few big names who are genuinely exceptional role models these days. Regardless of what charity work Hellmuth does he's known as the Poker Brat. Ivey and Dwan nowhere to be seen. Some of the old school like Brunson and Greenstein disappearing from the limelight etc. I can only think of Galfond, and Raymer (despite the prostitute 'scandal') as trying to further the game and the environment.

Hachem throwing out Gold and Yang, or any of the other champions as responsible is b******. It's down to the poker sites and live operators to stamp out the childish 2+2 culture that pervades everywhere. But they won't, as then they're burning their own sources of income.
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OkiePokey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:19 pm
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There has never been a poker generation that focused more on quality of life and sharing strategy. Players are smarter and more balanced in life than in previous generations, and i see a lot of ppl having a great time playing tourneys and in cash-games tbh.

Also, it only takes one to be the catalyst for a good time at the table, so go out and be that person imo
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:43 pm
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If you win WSOP Main, why are you obligated to be an 'ambassador for poker'??

From what I've seen in the past, Hachem has at times had a very unpleasant persona at the table, so he's hardly one to talk about this.
jellyface
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:15 pm
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The subtitles on that Hachem YouTube video are really odd.

darrensprengers wrote:
The steady influx of egotistical, cognitively dissonant, aggressive young players would slowly but surely stop and even reverse the growth of poker.


+1
Poker is much less fun than when I started in the 90s, and that's mainly due to the influx of younger players who "know" that they can play and make that clear; they lack the maturity to be pleasant having learned how to be a dick from TV poker.

As for Hachem himself, he's not particularly beneficial to poker afaik.
Daniel Negreanu - yes, at least before he joined a cult and started spouting bollocks from motivational posters.
Phil Hellmuth I would defend totally - he's a pantomime villain and a brilliant brand.
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Alex B
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:55 pm
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Agree in general, but to re-introduce a point that was covered in an old thread, this hasn't really changed.

In live games ~2002 there was plenty of berating, but back then it was coming from old guys (and they were smoking to add to the BO, so it wasn't an attractive atmosphere).

I can't comment on before then, but based on LNP and books, it seems like poker has always attracted d@*ks.

I think the big problem now is that all that everyone is playing leagues better than they used to, and it was easy to tolerate idiots when margins were huge.
Frodge
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:47 pm
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darrensprengers wrote:

The steady influx of egotistical, cognitively dissonant, aggressive young players would slowly but surely stop and even reverse the growth of poker.


Egotistical and aggressive young players ... I've seen some but I've found the younger, hoody-wearing crowd to be mostly very quiet and sullen. Not wanting to get involved in any chat and insulated from it by headphones.

I'm fascinated by the "cognitively dissonant" description. Do you mean that these players berate others when deep down they know that their opponent's play wasn't too bad and that although they weren't following contemporary convention, the approach they took was equally valid (given the vagaries of poker)? Or, perhaps, they behave in certain ways to be part of the "in crowd" when deep down they know they're acting like tools?

Just not quite sure what you mean... Question
Bogus
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:57 am
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Frodge wrote:
darrensprengers wrote:

The steady influx of egotistical, cognitively dissonant, aggressive young players would slowly but surely stop and even reverse the growth of poker.


Egotistical and aggressive young players ... I've seen some but I've found the younger, hoody-wearing crowd to be mostly very quiet and sullen. Not wanting to get involved in any chat and insulated from it by headphones.

I'm fascinated by the "cognitively dissonant" description. Do you mean that these players berate others when deep down they know that their opponent's play wasn't too bad and that although they weren't following contemporary convention, the approach they took was equally valid (given the vagaries of poker)? Or, perhaps, they behave in certain ways to be part of the "in crowd" when deep down they know they're acting like tools?

Just not quite sure what you mean... Question


Yes
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The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:45 pm
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Interesting topic but do not see how a small number of players can be responsible for something as major as this. I think it is an evolutionary process that is being reflected in other areas of life in general as well. People's values and character have changed over the past 50 years and that hasn't just happened in poker.

You only have to look at Politicians as a prime example.....I can't understand why so many people were shocked that so many of them were caught with their fingers in the till fiddling expenses. Society has changed and evolved and these people have been "created" by a multitude of variables coming together. Today's poker players come from a wider mesh than just the views and behaviour of a few individuals IMO
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jellyface
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:32 pm
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Phil Galfond's response - http://www.runitonce.com/chatter/spea...r-the-new-school/
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evelyn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:00 pm
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jellyface wrote:
Phil Galfond's response - http://www.runitonce.com/chatter/spea...r-the-new-school/


That's quite good. I'd draw an analogy with chess. In chess anyone who plays in a serious league will have a grasp of the basic openings and principles. Recreational players who play for fun probably won't have studied to that level. When a decent league player plays a recreational player the recreational player will get trounced not because he is less clever or talented but because there will be major technical weaknesses in his play. Poker is becoming/has become like
Jack Starr
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:50 pm
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evelyn wrote:
jellyface wrote:
Phil Galfond's response - http://www.runitonce.com/chatter/spea...r-the-new-school/


That's quite good. I'd draw an analogy with chess. In chess anyone who plays in a serious league will have a grasp of the basic openings and principles. Recreational players who play for fun probably won't have studied to that level. When a decent league player plays a recreational player the recreational player will get trounced not because he is less clever or talented but because there will be major technical weaknesses in his play. Poker is becoming/has become like



spot on imho! Very Happy
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DropTheHammer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:34 pm
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Video response from Jerry Yang. Never seen much of him but he seems a decent guy. Maybe he's been involved in some shadyness behind the scenes (like Gold was) that isn't in the public domain?


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