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Run more pack or not?
Stop running packs you are a losing player 
17%
 17%  [ 3 ]
Keep running packs regardless of reason 
82%
 82%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 17

Steve50
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:21 am
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I feel the need to ask the question as to why people back me in my packs. Mainly due to being trolled on which even I agreed with myself to a certain extent, and with a recent reply in this weeks package thread made me wonder why do people back me?.

I know I am not a great player, I consider myself to be good to some extent and is why I have picked up the books and started to try and improve to be a winning player. One of the reasons for the stream was not only to give backers and others some entertainment but also to improve my game alongside the books and videos as people may spot leaks and let me know about them.

Though the things I had been told I where doing wrong I changed and got told by others I am still doing wrong, I know everyone has a different style and game plan and view things differently but it leaves me stuck and confused further as to am I doing it right.

I would raise 3 x the BB deep in tournaments and then c/bet with 70% of the pot, this I was told was bad play.
So I adjusted and worked myself down to 2.5 x and even 2 x the BB followed by a c/bet of around 40-50% which I was told was still large enough to either win the blinds or take the pot on the flop without risking so much...

But then I was told I was not betting enough and my bets now looked 'weak'. So where is the right or wrong in any given situation?. I try my best to take advice and change my game and still get told not only in the above but also other situations that my play is still bad.

After the first few weeks running the pack I was ready to pack it all in, it's actually one of the worse feelings to sit here after getting beaten out of several tournaments in a row while trying to win backers some cash. I was highly depressed about it and still am after not turning a big profit yet.

I was told about variance, though it seems my graph had been on that downhill slope for the past few years, I did make a big cash in the Micro Millions a couple of years back which turned my graph into an overall profit. And yes, I really am around 1.7k in profit on 888.com over about 5000 games from my early days starting out.

So my profit margin/loss is slight. One of my problems is sometimes I will just sit all my roll in a high buy-in game and lose it as I never stuck to bankroll management, which also affects my graph.

Here is my graph below and 3 points of my time at pokerstars:



1) I play casually for years, having a few games here and there and being a losing player always aiming for that big win...which eventually happened after about 1200 games when it was the first time I had ever been backed! In the Micro Millions by Hackett Hearts . After that I continued on my usual casual losing game again and forever travelling down.

2) After taking a break for a couple of years I return and lose a few games, then I have enough of losing and set myself on the goal of becoming a winning player. I pick up the books, rejoin the forum, and start my reading and studying. Now my graph goes on the straight line with many deeper runs due to thinking more about situations and using what I had learned so far from the books to improve my game, already I feel confident the changes had worked and I had improved a hell of a lot over these 500ish games. My later stages play still sucked though forever mini cashing.

Then I took one down and felt at this point to be good enough to run a pack and hopefully win people a big prize while learning/improving and enjoying game in the range of buy-ins that I don't often get to play so many of on a regular basis.

3) This part shows what happened since running the packs and changing my game that I had already changed to finally get myself on the straight/profit for 500 games.

All of a sudden going down again, and quite rapidly too. My first pack was a slight profit, then the run of worse luck or bad play I feel I had ever had, and then roughly enough cashes to win near stakes back at least. All with the chance of making a big score in that Deep Stacks I tried a couple of weeks ago, until I made the bad call with the AT.

It was close though, but albeit something went wrong from the point of learning via the books to changing again trying to take advice.

I am sure eventually I will get a big win again, and even regular wins as I do put a lot of effort into learning and trying to improve.

Even last weeks packed I cashed 4/5 on the Saturday and 2/6 on the Sunday but still made a slight loss!. According to OPR I cash in roughly 13-14% of tournaments which I have heard is pretty good going for the average player. If only my middle and late stage game wasn't so god damn crap I might turn those percentages into bigger wins and not just mini's.

And that comes to my point of why do people back me in packs? Because I have been ready to give it all up to stop the hassle and stress of getting trolled and told how bad I am!.

As I say, even I don't enjoy losing and getting hassle while playing for others as it's the worse feeling to lose in this situation and then to get told I am bad at the same time.

I couldn't care less about myself as long as I win stakes back at least them I'm happy, otherwise I spend the preceding week completely depressed.

So there we go...be nice Smile
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Last edited by Steve50 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
neilcaterham
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:39 am
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I think you are trying to learn too much, too quickly.
I am always trying to learn new stuff but its got to done in a controlled way otherwise you will not take in what you want to take in.

Good luck

I have backed you in the past rather than picking a horse, dog or anything like that as there is more of a sweat and it was only $10 so not really the end of the world.
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hackett
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:01 pm
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I'm welling up with my special mention Embarassed

Seriously Neil has touched on something though, you need to understand what are your two biggest leaks (or weakest parts of your game) and address those first. You can still evaluate other aspects of your game, but by specifically focusing on the top 2 or 3 leaks, which you may not resolve in full but you may do so to the point where they no longer become the worst parts of your game, then rinse and repeat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_analysis

The analogy i will use is some years ago i had some golf coaching (not to the standard of Reg, but still coaching), we analysed my swing, stance, positioning of my shoulders, club position in my stance, grip, use of wrists & hips through the impact, etc etc etc. After several piss poor rounds nothing seemed to be working right, i saw my coach again and he gave me one more piece of advice - Don't forget to hit the ball - Priceless
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ReggieK
The Guvnor


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:27 pm
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Steve you are willing to learn and that's excellent, and a good reason why people will back you.
Others who cannot be mentioned get given advice but it goes over their heads or they ignore it completely
Keep doing what you're doing, and don't force it.
Patience is the key.
darrensprengers
Misclick


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 7551

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:30 pm
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The reason i will stake these guys.

1) No mark up
2) If you play these tournaments you know that anyone can win on a day
3) Its not a long term deal so looking for a staking edge is ridiculous.


If it was a long term deal i would be looking for much better stats like a mdfcc or bergeroo. then it would be worth investing money over a significant and potentially profitable time. staking either of those for a week or two is pretty unlikely to have a return. they are tournament players and most of the roi comes in deep finishes which you are unlikely to pick that week or that tournament to back them.

So to re-cap i back them because its a bit of fun and :
1) they might play some hands dodgy and fluke a huge stack.
2) They might darvin moon a huge tourny i could not bring myself to play as it has 10k runners
3) its for small amounts and is fun to see how people are doing. i usually dont even remember and then you can read or have a quick rail.

to me its nice that for such a small outlay these guys are prepared to let me buy a piece.
Rigsby
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:45 pm
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As long as packages are small i cant see any problem

why the trolls sing and shout from the roof tops i will never know
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Steve50
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:19 pm
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Cheers for the replies so far.

I guess having patience is always the best solution, personally when I want to work hard at something I go overload and do it as much as possible until it's done. So patience has never been a strong point, impatience is also what made me a bad player as I would play way too many hands always wanting the big stack as soon as possible and never feeling I had enough.

That for me was my weakest part and biggest leak, a LAG!, which is the first thing I worked on.

Now it seems that rather being LAG to TAG, I went from LAG to TAP!....aim was TAG Mr. Green . Though understanding how to be TAG is probably my worse current leak as when I have a hand now I am always worried it's beat and I'll bust out looking like an idiot.

Apart from that, I don't even know where my other leaks are and is something that learning will help me find out bit by bit.

It's nice to know the reasons behind staking too, I myself have the occasional piece of someone for a bit of fun, also it gets them playing games that they don't often get to play as with myself, and it beats sticking it on the lottery or a football match!.
I think the responses will not only help me to understand and feel more comfortable, but for the trolls to get their answers too Smile
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bergeroo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:15 pm
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Steve, I look into your threads from time to time and I think you are getting better. You just have to keep working all the time.

Some of the fields you play are so huge that they are a lottery for any player, maybe once in one of those, you will have your day, until then just try and break even and then when you do run really good and win ten flips in a row, use everything you have learnt to take advantage and not make any mistakes deep and try and get a big score.

Gl at the tables.
X
Quads


Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:13 pm
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Steve,

Like Neil and Hackett have said, don't try to work on too much all at the same time (and be prepared to accept that you won't please all the people. all the time also).

1. Work on your major leaks
2. Solicit the advice of players you respect and take it on board
3. Listen to what your [main] backers want
4. ENJOY playing and learning the game

GL mate Mr. Green
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GoldenDonkey
One Pair


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:59 am
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Just to chime in on your sizing comments.

Opening Pre:
The 3x sizing is gross. 2 x sizing is perfect once you hit the 150/300 level with ante. Before this, make it ~2.5x.

C-Bet:
Small bets are scarier than big bets to a winning player. Those who tell you to cbet 70% are not confident in their own game and will not be winning longterm players (for the most part). I think that there is a correlation between the size of a player's open/cbet and how long they have been playing. This can lead to the conclusion that some players have not adapted to the "new" generations or to current meta-game trends in the game.

Ignore the haters, just keep doing what you are doing, and asking questions when you are not sure. Any troll who has a go and does not prove they can play themselves is not really worth listening too. (That is not to say that all trolls can not play well and/or profitability.

Jonny C
PokerWolf1
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:05 pm
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I back you because I find you to be one of the friendliest people on the forum and also one of the people who is trying hardest to improve their game. For the $20 or whatever a time I just like to have a sweat and like to see it spread over schedules so I can rail a few. If I used the $20 myself I would probably use it on one tournament (and most likely lose it anyway)

I do think that the big bink is not far round the corner given the effort you put in and the fact that you've been deep in a few tournaments recently. I have no problem in continuing to back you in the packages you put up. Just keep listening to the reputable members rather than the trolls who offer nothing constructive and it will come.
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Steve50
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:19 pm
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PokerWolf1 wrote:
I back you because I find you to be one of the friendliest people on the forum and also one of the people who is trying hardest to improve their game. For the $20 or whatever a time I just like to have a sweat and like to see it spread over schedules so I can rail a few. If I used the $20 myself I would probably use it on one tournament (and most likely lose it anyway)

I do think that the big bink is not far round the corner given the effort you put in and the fact that you've been deep in a few tournaments recently. I have no problem in continuing to back you in the packages you put up. Just keep listening to the reputable members rather than the trolls who offer nothing constructive and it will come.


Thanks Wolf Very Happy

I feel the bink is coming too, I don't always listen to the troll and always take notes from the reputable members, just thought this thread may ease everones mind that wonders why or debates any part of it, including shutting the troll up who has not seen the thread yet as the poll is a one side vote at the moment Shocked Very Happy
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Steve50
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:30 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
Steve, I look into your threads from time to time and I think you are getting better. You just have to keep working all the time.

Some of the fields you play are so huge that they are a lottery for any player, maybe once in one of those, you will have your day, until then just try and break even and then when you do run really good and win ten flips in a row, use everything you have learnt to take advantage and not make any mistakes deep and try and get a big score.

Gl at the tables.


Cheers for the reply Bergeroo, they do feel like lotteries most of the time, especially to actually win one or make a final table is always going to be a rare occasion which I won't have a problem with, as long as I do keep learning and breaking even at least most of the time I would be happy.

Breaking even means going deeper, and going deeper gives me the experience I will need to get past late stages and progress. I like the changing strategy in tournament play and just need to work hard at those different phases.

@X, I will definitely continue working on those points and others, still going to be hard trying not to learn everything at once but I will be trying my best still to correct the main points and hoping everything else falls into place as Hackett mentioned regarding Pareto Analysis (which i'd never heard of until yesterday Embarassed) , interesting though and it makes total sense Smile
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Welshman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:33 pm
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Steve, the troll is just that, a troll with an axe to grind. So far 12 people have voted and 100% think you should carry on and as long as they're happy to back you then you ahouldn't be worrying about such things as sad people with no friends, just concentrate on you game. Maybe one day I'll be able to play online again and join in some of the backing but I'm sure you will have binked one by then.
StGilmore
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:06 pm
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Welshman wrote:
Steve, the troll is just that, a troll with an axe to grind. So far 12 people have voted and 100% think you should carry on and as long as they're happy to back you then you ahouldn't be worrying about such things as sad people with no friends, just concentrate on you game. Maybe one day I'll be able to play online again and join in some of the backing but I'm sure you will have binked one by then.


+1 to all the above!
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