Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
From last night's GPS syndicate game. Some history here as I had 3-bet in position 3 or 4 times in prior 50 hands or so against the two player to my immediate right without ever getting to flop.
When my 3-bet is called here I rule out AA and KK, I expect to see 99-JJ most often but could be something like AQ or a smaller pair looking to do more than set mine. I don't expect AK here but with history I thought it was possible. Even KQs went through my mind given prior action but I weighted that low.
So, I am not worried at all by AQ, dead to TT and JJ and otherwise mostly way ahead with limited outs against me. Which of the options below is optimal do you think, I think I should have taken option 2 in retrospect but that may be wrong too.
1. spaz shove like I did
2. check behind, call a bet on turn with intention of folding to a river shove
3. bet ~1/2 pot and fold to shove or check behind on turn if called and fold to river shove?
4. bet ~1/2 pot and call shove (can't see why I would do this over option 1).
5. Something you are smart enough to think of and I am not.
What would you do here and why?
_________________ "Brandon Uhl @BrandonUhl
@knifeboy62 @limonpoker Ty mike love your poker game your a boss" - lolz
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
i think with flop pot size and ur stack size u cant fold this hand at any point now
i would have bet 1/2 to 3/4 pot on flop with intention of calling a shove
i wouldnt bet all in as u did but with ur stack size compared to pot size i dont think it makes much differnce except betting something like 1/2 pot gets hands like maybe 99 to call.All in pushes out all hands u beat
but its a meh spot i dont think u can fold it after flop comes tho.
What I'm still mulling over is the best way to see if there is the resistance Caro talks about to be wary of - say in your place KB, I'm thinking I'd try 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet. If X 3bets or shoves, am I able to believe? If he's tricksy and flat calls, the K might scare both of us and slow it down. If he checks on Turn then I check behind - thinking I'm controlling pot size here or am I really just giving up control of the hand? _________________ "I find it's best to start the day with no composure and then you've got nothing to lose." B. Boatman
What I'm still mulling over is the best way to see if there is the resistance Caro talks about to be wary of - say in your place KB, I'm thinking I'd try 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet. If X 3bets or shoves, am I able to believe? If he's tricksy and flat calls, the K might scare both of us and slow it down. If he checks on Turn then I check behind - thinking I'm controlling pot size here or am I really just giving up control of the hand?
i dont think controlling the pot size is an option in this hand given the fact KB has just over a pot size bet left.
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 Posts: 1880 Location: Nottingham
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
I got incredibly lucky in this hand. When you 3-bet me, I felt certain you were on JJ+ or AK, but didn't want to let go of my hand. I considered putting in a fourth bet pre-flop and probably would if I hadn't promised myself not to agro-spaz at the start of the game. With hindsight, I'm sure the only hands that would have folded to a fourth bet would be hands I wanted to be playing against. Obviously given the flop, I checked to the bettor, and was always wanting to get the money in; but I'm fairly certain I'd have had a hard time getting away from the hand if we'd both ended up with overpairs to the flop.
Looking back at it, we both took a heavily aggressive line pre-flop with a full 3X raise and a full 3X re-raise, which didn't leave much room for manoeuvre postflop with almost 20 big blinds in the pot already.
The King on the turn didn't do my nerves any good, I can promise you! _________________ PS: Ulysses1975
GP: THMFXX
What I'm still mulling over is the best way to see if there is the resistance Caro talks about to be wary of - say in your place KB, I'm thinking I'd try 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet. If X 3bets or shoves, am I able to believe? If he's tricksy and flat calls, the K might scare both of us and slow it down. If he checks on Turn then I check behind - thinking I'm controlling pot size here or am I really just giving up control of the hand?
I stopped following Mike caro because he seemed to give lessons entitled "Why sometimes it's best to fold the nuts in tournaments" and "Why straight flushes are not that good". Too advanced for me.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
stack sizes mean x played it pretty bad and got lucky. you have a pot sized bet left. what do you think is gonna happen? 7/8 times you make 4k. 1/8 you lose 8k.
Even the check by x is bad. when he had AQ, 99 etc it means you can shove a much wider 3 bet range. If he is check folding AQ. 1010, jj to over over cards its just horrendous with those stack sizes. _________________ The next best thing to gambling and winning is gambling and losing.
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 Posts: 1880 Location: Nottingham
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
darrensprengers wrote:
stack sizes mean x played it pretty bad and got lucky. you have a pot sized bet left. what do you think is gonna happen? 7/8 times you make 4k. 1/8 you lose 8k.
Even the check by x is bad. when he had AQ, 99 etc it means you can shove a much wider 3 bet range. If he is check folding AQ. 1010, jj to over over cards its just horrendous with those stack sizes.
I definitely agree with you pre-flop Darren, but can't follow your reasoning post-flop? Do you think I would have been better putting in a half-pot sized bet, or shoving OOP? _________________ PS: Ulysses1975
GP: THMFXX
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
X wrote:
darrensprengers wrote:
stack sizes mean x played it pretty bad and got lucky. you have a pot sized bet left. what do you think is gonna happen? 7/8 times you make 4k. 1/8 you lose 8k.
Even the check by x is bad. when he had AQ, 99 etc it means you can shove a much wider 3 bet range. If he is check folding AQ. 1010, jj to over over cards its just horrendous with those stack sizes.
I definitely agree with you pre-flop Darren, but can't follow your reasoning post-flop? Do you think I would have been better putting in a half-pot sized bet, or shoving OOP?
i think its a shove fold pre with the chip stacks given the 3 bet size. if i had called i would probably shove full range and that may be superfluous balancing but then i would not make the initial passive call.
I guess you can conteract my argument by saying you would check call irrespective of flop. Again i dont think thats a good line given the chipstacks and observing knifeboys hand frequencies _________________ The next best thing to gambling and winning is gambling and losing.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
darrensprengers wrote:
Again i dont think thats a good line given the chipstacks and observing knifeboys hand frequencies
It deffo is not a good line against my 3 bet characteristics, I might have 3-bet 4 or 5 times in position last night but that's only because I happened to have premium hand each time.
There was a good reason my FTP avatar used to be a rock, it wasn't for deception.
PS. in cash I spew all over the place but in tournaments I am, sadly, exploitably tight. _________________ "Brandon Uhl @BrandonUhl
@knifeboy62 @limonpoker Ty mike love your poker game your a boss" - lolz
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
Stop fagging up the forum with bad beat stories masquerading as strategy questions.
You've reraised pre-flop with QQ and got a J-high flop with little more than a pot-sized bet left. You're always putting the rest of your chips in here.
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 4465 Location: Hendon (Deception Central)
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Better options than reflex shove when way ahead - way behind
MattF wrote:
Stop fagging up the forum with bad beat stories masquerading as strategy questions.
You've reraised pre-flop with QQ and got a J-high flop with little more than a pot-sized bet left. You're always putting the rest of your chips in here.
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