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OwenP
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Joined: 15 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:40 pm
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Mark S. wrote:

Everyone elses are just as valid but one needs to be aware that on-line poker is a series of computer programs required to do a job and that is to make money.


No, the role of the system is to provide poker games. Making or losing money has nothing to do with the underlying system. What you are saying is analagous to claiming that the primary function of a pub is to make money, as opposed to provide a service, which is clearly nonsense. You are creating a conspiracy based on the fact that online poker involves computers, which makes you feel uneasy. Does you have a similar distrust for your bank? They might be skimming fractions of pennies out of your accounts Office Space style, because after all the banking system is all about making money. Rolling Eyes
balloo
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:42 pm
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Rob Gibralter just owned Mark. Back under the rock please.
RobGibraltar
Out to Lunch


Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 7842
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:45 pm
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Would you agree or disagree that a computer can write random numbers?

-Yes it can, either hardware based (true entropy based on eg. head fluctations in a diode) or software based.


Would you agree or disagree that computer programs are written to do a specific thing?

-Of course they are. Why else write a program?



Would you agree that in order to do the specific thing that in order to achieve the desired results certain 'criteria' needs to be agreed upon?

-Yes - this is life mark. In order to have a successful shopping visit you need to have bought everything on your list.


Here's one for you mark:

Is Mark capable of being a donk?
Yes? then he IS a donk


Just because something is capable of doing something, does not mean it is.

Just because I used to go trap shooting and the potential to kill people with a 12 bore doesn't mean I did.

Mark - your logic is f***ed.
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OwenP
Straight Flush


Joined: 15 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:46 pm
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balloo wrote:
Rob Gibralter just owned Mark. Back under the rock please.


Yup, good post by Rob.
gandalf55
Wizard


Joined: 28 Jun 2006
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Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:49 pm
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balloo wrote:
Mark S. wrote:
gandalf55 wrote:
I must admit I didn't make it to the end of the original post, but from what I read.......................WHAT UTTER DRIVEL!!!

I'm miles behind a lot of the contributors here both experience and skill-wise, but somehow have managed to cobble a profit together every year since I started playing online.


An excellent argument Gandolf.

"I make a profit so therefore its not fixed!"



Your argument that it is rigged is pretty much the same thing! I dont make money so it must be rigged!


Nice to find someone else who understands irony. Thanks Balloo
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Mark S.
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Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:54 pm
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Actually Rob broughtr about some interesting points...lets discuss 1 or two...

The 'shuffling' process is similar to how a real shuffle works in most cases. The cards are assigned a unique number from 1-52 or from 0-51, these are randomly placed in an 'order' at the start of the hand and then dealt out.

What this says to me is that the sequence of cards is determined 'pre-flop', as already stated. The recipient of those cards, according to yourself, is also random however the recipient of those cards 'could be weighted'.

'Action flops' are also a source of player wins & losses.

Lets assume the SB is dealt Qd-Jd and the BB Ac-10c. No raising occurs and just these players remain after the 'initial' round of betting.

Flop is 10d-7d-4h.

Who goes skint here? Answer...someone!

The interesting thing about this is not that the cards came out the way they did but it just so happened that they came out appropriate to the only two players left playing the hand.

Yes it DOES happen live but not as often as you think!
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Checkov
Royal Flush


Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Posts: 10111

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:55 pm
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Mark your example hand tells me why you might be losing.
balloo
Full House


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:57 pm
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Mark S. wrote:


'Action flops' are also a source of player wins & losses.

Lets assume the SB is dealt Qd-Jd and the BB Ac-10c. No raising occurs and just these players remain after the 'initial' round of betting.

Flop is 10d-7d-4h.

Who goes skint here? Answer...someone!




This thread is getting more amusing. I want to play against players who go broke on these boards with these hands all day.
paddymick
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:01 pm
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Mark S, do you plan to 'take it further'?
donkasaurus
Flush


Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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Location: Newbury

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:02 pm
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Mark S. wrote:
Actually Rob broughtr about some interesting points...lets discuss 1 or two...

The 'shuffling' process is similar to how a real shuffle works in most cases. The cards are assigned a unique number from 1-52 or from 0-51, these are randomly placed in an 'order' at the start of the hand and then dealt out.

What this says to me is that the sequence of cards is determined 'pre-flop', as already stated. The recipient of those cards, according to yourself, is also random however the recipient of those cards 'could be weighted'.

'Action flops' are also a source of player wins & losses.

Lets assume the SB is dealt Qd-Jd and the BB Ac-10c. No raising occurs and just these players remain after the 'initial' round of betting.

Flop is 10d-7d-4h.

Who goes skint here? Answer...someone!

The interesting thing about this is not that the cards came out the way they did but it just so happened that they came out appropriate to the only two players left playing the hand.

Yes it DOES happen live but not as often as you think!


Well if they didn't lose their money to you how else are you going to get it out of them? Naturally there will always be winners and losers.

Let's assume what you have just said was in an MTT. Someone has to lose in order to ultimatley reach the overall winner of the tournament. What you are actually using here as the basis for your argument is just standard bloody variance.

What you are saying really then Mark is that because I have lost the hand it is rigged. So conversely if you won the hand you would not be saying it is rigged. If you think it is rigged why play it?

Also it might not happen as often live as opposed to on-line because you play more hands on-line than live. Therefore the beats seem to happen more often.

I think you are getting variance mixed up with cheating software.

Also your hand example is poor. Why would you go for broke on a flop like that?
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HopeItsChips
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:06 pm
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Mark S. wrote:

If anyone were to be given A-A 5 times in a row would you consider the game to be fixed?


If nobody ever ever got AA 5 times in a row at some point then the game would be fixed. But I suspect you know that and you just haven't been the centre of attention for a while now since you pushed with 9 10 off suit in first level of the APAT.
Nem
Royal Flush


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:08 pm
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[x] I HAS TOP PAIRS!
dezza666
Full House


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:10 pm
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Mark S. wrote:


'Action flops' are also a source of player wins & losses.



Rubbish. What determines a player's profitability is minimising his own mistakes, while exploiting the mistakes of others.

Surely this is a joke post. You can't truly believe what you've written. If you do, do yourself a favour and quit poker, because my 3 week old girl knows more about poker than you! Laughing Laughing Laughing
TheRealDeal
Full House


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:10 pm
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Mark S. wrote:
For many years now I've played online poker, as I'm sure 99% of readers of this forum has.

In all those years playing I've won & lost but never made a consistent profit, as I'm sure 99% of readers of this forum have not. The question is...WHY?

There have been thousands of posts in hundreds of forums about IF on-line poker is rigged in some way. Well as a person that understands how on-line poker is put together I honestly believe that it IS and here I'll explain as to WHY I believe this!

Lets start with the basics...

Online Poker is a COMPUTER PROGRAM.

Whereas in 'live-play' true randomness is achieved in poker as cards have no memory in the world of computer programs randomness cannot be achieved as the computer KNOWS what has happened once any card is dealt.

e.g In live play a dealer deals you an Ace of Clubs as your first card. The 2nd card you receive will be absolutely random (in fair play) as the cards themselves have no clue as to what your first card was. In computer play the computer KNOWS that the first card you received was the Ace of Clubs (as it needs to know for determining the winning & losing hands) and so therefore the computer program has knowledge of your hand.

In any online game therefore there are PROCESSES designed by humans that allow for winners & losers to be determined. In order for there to be a winner then there has to be a loser.

So how do we make a winner?

In my opinion winners are designated at the time the deal commences. Of course the ACTUAL winner may not be the one that was pre-designated as human actions may, or may not, help to ensure that this is the case but in general I believe this to be the case.

Processes programmed in are sometimes farily obvious in the way they are achieved. Hands like KK v AA will 99 times out a 100 initiate player reaction where all the money is in the middle at SOME STAGE during hand play whereas if you're given a hand like Q-2 then its 99% likely that you'll be folding.

This is also true of live-play and because of this owners and software developers can always state that 'thats poker' and thats the way it is...but is it?

Of course winners in general need to be identified as such and to the system they're possibly flagged by way of a rating system which allows players to be recognised as a 'winner' or a 'loser'.

Rating systems may work as follows:

Winners-> New player, regular player (daily)
Losers -> Just cashed out, irregular player

Between the player types of winners & losers there are those catagories that most of us fall into and that is one of neither winner nor loser to such a degree as we'd care too much about!

With a rating in place for every player on site then the software can ensure that winners are those players that are 'supposed' to win. After all...winning players have more money to play with and therefore have more chance of being involved of raked games.

Remember...online poker operators are in business to make money. What costs them money is withdrawals and they discourage withdrawals as much as possible by ensuring that you do it as little as often!

As software has become more sophisticated then the games you're playing on-line become ever more experienced in determining who should win and who should lose.

If you doubt any of this to be untrue I offer you the following experiment...

1) join a COMPLETELY NEW on-line poker site with $100
2) Cash out when you get to $500 (as you undoubtedly will)
3) redeposit $100
4) see how quick you lose it!

Questions welcome!



Mark, I have a couple of questions.

I do not use PokerTracker or any other tool. I make profit consistently when I play online. I have one major flaw in my character and that is I usually end up playing 50/100 or 100/200 NL games. I haven't got anywhere near the roll to play these games. I usually go skint because I can't handle the swings. I then go back down to 1/2 nl. I do not sit down with more than 2-5% of my roll. I grind this out throughout all of the stakes. I find beating the game up to 5/10 and 10/20 is easy. However, I think I have finally sorted out my issues and am now much more disciplined.

Before suggesting that online poker is rigged maybe you should really try to assess your game from every angle and ask yourself why you are not a big winner.

I am predominately a cash player. A very good friend of mine is a ok cash player but good tournament player. He is SUPER disciplined with regard to his roll. He has consistently made profits every month for the last 5 years playing tournaments.

Your views??
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donkasaurus
Flush


Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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Location: Newbury

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:13 pm
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dezza666 wrote:


do yourself a favour and quit poker, because my 3 week old girl knows more about poker than you! Laughing Laughing Laughing


Laughing
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