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The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:49 pm
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As for City winning the CL this season......no way!! Teams just don't explode into winning the European Cup these days until they have experience of knocking on the door several times. Going from two seasons where they failed to get out of the group to winning it is asking too much. I know its a cup but they haven't evolved as a CL winning side for me. It took United a further 6 years after their first title under Fergie in 1993 to win the CL in 99.

Ditto with Chelsea and Liverpool and any other winner within the past 15 years. You can rest easy Darren for me and next season as well Very Happy
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Donnie_Brasco
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:06 pm
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The Dean
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:49 pm
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I bet you are feeling better this morning Indy after City winning and Chelsea losing Very Happy

How fascinating is this title race, as soon as you think its going one way it goes the other.

Two questions for everyone

1. Can Moyes be trusted with spending huge money in the summer at United?
2. If Wigan defend the FA Cup (big if at this stage) then would it be the most remarkable achievement in English football by a club considering they were a struggling Prem club when they won it and a championship side when they defended it.......just a thought Very Happy
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tjm8
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:12 pm
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The Dean wrote:


1. Can Moyes be trusted with spending huge money in the summer at United?


Yes, he has a 6 year contract and should be given all of this time to try and get it right. If United did decide to make a change though, I would like them to give Roy Hodgson the job after he manages a famous win against Costa Rica, but cruelly failed to reach the group stages as FIFA didn't change to rules to allow 7 points for a win.


The Dean wrote:


2. If Wigan defend the FA Cup (big if at this stage) then would it be the most remarkable achievement in English football by a club considering they were a struggling Prem club when they won it and a championship side when they defended it.......just a thought Very Happy


No not for me, whilst it will be a great achievement for them already to get to the semi's (as they are a fairly crap side), it still doesn't do it for me, plus they will lose vs Arsenal anyway.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:52 am
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Quote:
[quote="tjm8"]
Yes, he has a 6 year contract and should be given all of this time to try and get it right.



No way in this world that Moyes will get 6 years and neither should he. United have lost an estimated 250 million in value this season already. A club like United cannot afford to be where they are for several seasons running. No CL football will already be an obstacle for many top players coming to OT and in terms of major trophies.......well Moyes STILL has to prove that he can cut it with the best coaches in world football and the best players will be aware of that and I for one seriously doubt that he can.

Forget all this crap about a "transitional season"......United's drop off has been far too acute for it not to be largely Moyes doing. People keep harping on about how Ferguson was given time.....totally different times. Uniteds value couldn't drop half a billion back in the late eighties early nineties and it was much easier to give a manager time back then when the expectations were far lower and so was the value of the club both at home and abroad.

Besides.....if a manager hasn't got it right after 3 seasons then where is the guarantee that he will fix everything in seasons 4,5 and 6???? Nobody seems to be saying at OT (although why would they) that they took a massive gamble in Moyes because he was moving up from a lower level and had still to win anything. Even Mourinho who openly courted the job was heard to say on hearing that Moyes had got the United vacancy "but he hasn't won anything". All I hear coming out of his mouth is rhetoric and crap.

Still claiming in interviews that United are fighting for 4th is a joke. So are all these top four clubs going to suddenly stop amassing points then between now and the end of the season? Its like share trading when the shares that you bought are suddenly plunging. Savvy traders don't panic and will ride out short term fluctuations but if a stock is going to fall and fall and fall and never stop then you have to cut the losses somewhere......the key is in knowing when and why and that is it the best thing to do. Just because he got a 6 year contract doesn't mean they will give him 6 years at this current level of performance.
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Rigsby
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:10 pm
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would not surprise me if Moyes was not manager of united come the weekend if they get knocked out wednesday
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hackett
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:45 pm
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I would like to see Moyes given a chance, but after reading The Deans post financial influence in the game these days is the single biggest driver at any club - Ultimately failure to get 4th, failure to progress further in the ECL will ultimately lead to a very difficult non united type decision.

Questions i believe the board will ask themselves:

Financially how much do we stand to lose by keeping Moyes in charge and potentially failing in season 2?

Are there world class managers available to take the helm?

Do we have the right infrastructure in place to support Moyes should he stay on?

Fergie was a beast of a man and as such probably controlled more at the club than a manager realistically should, what structure was put in place to aid Moyes. Looking at the previous two transfer windows he hasn't got it right, but then what influence was there in place to guide him? Transfers are only one aspect, i am not sure all of his back room staff although talented have the experience to help him through these difficult times.

Lots of questions - My gut says they will look at the bigger picture and that won't have David Moyes in it.
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The Dean
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:12 am
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hackett wrote:

Lots of questions - My gut says they will look at the bigger picture and that won't have David Moyes in it.



Moyes will simply back them into a corner so that they have to act if things don't improve. This is not just about playing a waiting game. Everyone knew this season would be difficult but it is how Moyes is handling it that is the main issue. He has made a difficult situation in Fergie retiring a lot worse than it could have been. Moyes was on trial this season and he has failed the test in my opinion.

The thing is that many fans view things from a simply footballing aspect......that is too dated. Football clubs at this level are massive businesses first and foremost. They don't mind waiting a few years for success and business owners will speculate intelligently and re-invest but United's financial standing is rapidly being eroded.

They built their brand on success including in the far east where they are huge. Numerous league titles and CL success underpinned their marketing potential and is why they can afford to pay Rooney such nosebleed wages because a players value isn't just linked to what he does on the pitch. But several seasons of mediocrity simply cannot be allowed at OT and the financial implications would be mind boggling. It could take them 10 years to get back what they lost financially in several bad seasons.

If United cannot succeed on the pitch then this knocks on to not being able to attract stella players and not being able to do that costs them fortunes in marketing because players like Fellaini and others like him are not going to sell 50 million shirts in China with his name on the back like a Rooney or a Van Persie. If I were a United owner/co-owner at this moment in time then I would be very worried......but then again I would have campaigned very hard as a co-owner not to have Moyes in the first place.
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The Dean
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:03 pm
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Still think United have a chance tonight by the way as Olympiakos don't travel well in Europe historically. If United can score first and in the first half and with the crowd behind them then the Greeks could crumble and 3-0 may be possible.

My last word on this Moyes issue.......you put Mourinho or any other manager in charge at OT who has previous in terms of being in charge of "super clubs" and bringing success to them and United wouldn't be in this position. I know its hypothetical and cannot be proven now but give Mourinho the same set of resources that Moyes has had this season and I would wager 10k that they wouldn't have been out of the title race in December and the top four beyond them in bloody February.

Just seen the league and something struck me. United after more than 75% of an entire league season have slightly more points than Southampton, scored slightly more goals than Southampton, conceded slightly fewer goals than Southampton and amassed slightly more points than Southampton. So after winning the league last season they have now been reduced to a club that is slightly better than Southampton based on results of 29 matches.

That is NOT a transitional period for United that is an absolute "f****** disaster. When other top clubs have the same transitional periods after losing highly influential managers then they don't drop off the radar like a plane crash. Barcelona without Guardiola are still a formidable force and Bayern were dominant and winning trebles and CL titles with Heynckes and who did they replace him with......Guardiola. They didn't replace a treble winning top class manager with someone with no proven experience of coaching a high level club that hadn't won anything whose high point on his CV was getting a club to 4th in the league.

I know Moyes capacity at Everton was limited but that is a reason NOT to have him as manager because he simply has no bloody credentials at this stage of his career. Ferguson has to take the blame for this because the owners will have almost certainly gone with his recommendation 100% based on his record and I think it shows on his face when the camera is on him in the crowd.
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Grumbledook
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:21 pm
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I don't disagree with your assessment regarding other managers but big clubs have to give others a chance at some point. I think pinning the situation at moyes door is unfair, players haven't been performing either and despite winning the league last year the squad isn't the best.

Other clubs have stepped up this season which has just made things seem worse than they are imo. Was always going to be a period of adjustment after Ferguson.

Southampton have been having a very good season I feel the way you've compared against them is a bit dismissive of what they've achieved.

Liverpool finished 7th last season, 12 points from 4th spot, exactly the same position man utd are in now.

Fingers crossed for a performance tonight.
darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:07 pm
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I could do a full report but am about to go drink it up in manchester.
I have a few videos with a beauty of the winning goal.

Carrick still shite.
Rooney still sitting too deep tp get goals
Wellbwck love him bu5 has to improve final third movement
Ferdimand over thw hill.
De gea the best perdormance i have swen from him
Rafael a liabilty
Evra over the hill
Jones lot ro leaen
Giggs legend still has it
And ahhhh robin van peeeeeersie la la la
the shiver
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:50 am
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So in short if what your saying is true...the blame lies with Fergie and the board for overestimating Moyes capabilities not with Moyes himself
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TheBlueBoy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:28 am
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the shiver wrote:
So in short if what your saying is true...the blame lies with Fergie and the board for overestimating Moyes capabilities not with Moyes himself


For me, this is so nearly the definitive summing up of the whole situation.
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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:47 pm
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personally i think the problem lies with fergie in that he did not improve his team year after year with huge deficiencies in midfield.
carrick is terrible was yet again anonymous in midfield. I do not know what he put on his cv as it sure as shit is not footballer. Cant pass, cant tackle, Slow by premier league standards. etc etc.
Valencia has never revovered from that freak ankle injury. Lost a yard of pace, and his crossing is just awful.
Wellbeck is ok but not a winger so is always looking to get upfront and usually into van persies way.
Ashley young can be a good player but he is a confidence player and his is rock bottom at the minute. Without the support of a very solid central midfield he is continually left stranded. Cleverley after a very promising start looks like he just cannot cut it at united.
Mata is a great buy and if we can play him in position, which should not be a problem when we strengthen midfield, so rooney can get further up the pitch, could be an amazing addition.
Fellaini is an awful buy and will be sold in the summer.
Fletcher is back and if he can get match fit will enable moyes to drop carrick finally. After so long with the stomach problems it remains to be seen.

It is fergies fault in that he gave a very depleted and weakened squad to moyes which is glibbly overlooked by the statement of champions.

David Moyes is a good manager.He has a proven track record and needs to be given time.
Look how shit liverpool were when brendan rodgers took over. Now the sun shines out of his arse.
Obviously liverpool where total shite when he took over so it was business as usual. Whereas United where champions and unlucky to go out to real madrid in the CL. I think that glossed over the inefficiencies. this can be shown by the lackluster spanish teams getting destroyed by relatively average german sides.

Moyes did have a chance to buy and has bought number 10s and in particular fellaini as his first buys. To not replace the ageing already weakpoint of the team, centre midfield, this is perhaps the blame he should take.
He has 200 million in the summer from a chest created by fergies aversion to buying towards the end.
if he sepnds 200 mill and we are still shite he will be gone. no manager in the world could survive that as mourinho proved.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:15 pm
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Grumbledook wrote:
I don't disagree with your assessment regarding other managers but big clubs have to give others a chance at some point. I think pinning the situation at moyes door is unfair, players haven't been performing either and despite winning the league last year the squad isn't the best.

Other clubs have stepped up this season which has just made things seem worse than they are imo. Was always going to be a period of adjustment after Ferguson.

Southampton have been having a very good season I feel the way you've compared against them is a bit dismissive of what they've achieved.

Liverpool finished 7th last season, 12 points from 4th spot, exactly the same position man utd are in now.

Fingers crossed for a performance tonight.



Grumble,I didn't pin the entire situation on Moyes and is why I said that IMO he has made a difficult situation worse. When you talk about giving others a chance then that is easier said than done when it is somebody elses money that you are gambling with. In most other careers there is a progression advancement to the top with no sudden leaps unless your dad owns the bloody company. But going from Everton with no trophies to a monster of a club like United is too big a leap.

Ferguson came from Aberdeen but this is 2014 and not 1986. I am also not dismissing Saints either but there is absolutely no way that United transitional season or not should be on a par with them after 29 games. Clearly this is a tougher league to win than last season but United have performed very badly against sides who haven't progressed since last season don't forget. The players haven't been performing.......BUT WHY!!! When players under-perform for this period of time then the blame has to be with the manager at a club like United.

I never expected United to be champions this season as the problems were evident but when players are not performing to the level that they can then serious questions have to be asked of the manager. Even if you argue that Moyes needs time to grow into the job then ffs.....do United want a bloody trainee in charge for several seasons until he hopefully picks up enough savvy whilst in the meantime they drop half a billion in value!!!

Its a bit like a poker player that experiences highly negative variance. If one handles that negative variance very badly and loses 25 buy-ins while a better and more experienced player would maybe have lost 10 then the difference is down to individual quality of the two players. You cannot then blame outdraws and coolers for the entire loss when much of it has been your fault. This analogy sums it up.....he shouldn't have got the job IMO and so others need to take the blame also. It is difficult for many people in the media to say that without saying that Moyes is simply not good enough for the job so many ex-pros and pundits don't really say what they think because many have contacts or friends in certain places or they have to be "politically correct" with their banter.

Just seen the CL draw.......my 3-0 prediction for Olympiakos was nailed and I give United a 5%-10% chance at best against Bayern especially with the first leg at home.
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