Tournament Directors

Articles

You are here: Home › Poker Articles & Features › You are the Tournament Director Series 5 › Articles › Show and Take, Last Live Hand or Split Pot?

You are the Tournament Director Series 5: Show and Take, Last Live Hand or Split Pot?

This one was sent in by Scott Kenyon:

It amazes me how many places treat this situation differently and also how many different dealers act in this situation and I would welcome the TDs opinions on what they feel the dealers should/shouldn't do in this situation:

In an NLH tournament on the river Player A makes a bet and Player B calls the bet. Dealer says 'Show and Take'. Player A throws his/her hand directly into the muck. Player B pushes their cards over the line face down.

(I know the cards are still live unless the dealer has pulled them into the muck but I am interested to see what your panel of TDs feel the responsibility of the dealer is in this situation, having already said 'Show and Take' and the cards have been pushed over the line face down. Also I am interested to see whether your TDs feel the last 'active' hand still wins the pot regardless or whether the cards should be mucked by the dealer and the pot split... I have had both situations happen many times and it's one of the annoying situations where consistency would be nice... sadly this doesn't happen!)

Jack Effel
The dealer should ask player B to show his/her hand in order to receive the pot. Some major tournaments do not require the “calling” player to show the winning hand, if the original bettor has folded. There are also times when all hands are mucked, and the only decision left is to award the pot to the person who has the last live hand.

I’m one of the few who does not believe that a player should only be required to show their hand if someone asks. At the WSOP, if a hand is played to showdown, then the winning hand must be “shown.” When there are millions of dollars at stake, it should not be easy for players to dump chips. If left up to suspicion, the best cheaters will fool you 9/10 times. I take the guess work out of it, and force the winning hand to show every time. Players who violate this rule at the WSOP will receive a warning/penalty.

Thomas Kremser
In this situation obviously both players don’t want to show their hands. The fact is that Player A mucked his hand (dead hand) and Player B is the only player with cards and therefore he wins the pot.

David Lamb
The last live/active hand gets the pot. B would be awarded the chips; there is no reason to consider splitting this pot.
 

David Luzago
Dealer should advise player B to show his cards even if he pushed them over the line face down, so he can show them and get the pot.
 

Matt Savage
100% agree that there needs to be a rule and we have instituted a new TDA that the last live hand wins the pot. See www.PokerTDA.com for the new 2011 rules.

Thomas Lamatsch
Before I will make a decision, I have to explain another ruling from my side, because I know TD making a different ruling here:
If at the showdown the first playerA mucks his hand, also playerB is allowed to muck his hand, too! This because of fairness to the game! Why one player has to show and the other dosen’t. If a third player is afraid of collusion, he can call the TD to control the hands of the players.

So now, the situation in this case is very clear, player B has the last active hand and receives the pot!

JP McCann
Player A has relinquished his claim to the pot and so Player B wins the pot because he has the last live hand.

Player B doesn’t have to show his cards. Poker is a game of information. I think it is unfair for Player A to get information about Player B’s cards when Player B is the person who has paid to see A’s hand.

FIDPA (The International Poker Rules) Ruling (Marcel Luske)
In order to win any pot you must have a hand and showdown when there is a showdown situation ! We do understand the player still in the hand might feels like there is nothing to beat & react on that with not showing automatically. However it is the duty and obligation of the captain on the table (The Dealer) to keep the players playing by the rules at all times.
This is why written rules need to be in place so players know up front what to expect in case of a ruling and concistency is guaranteed !
If any Question occures & that rule is not written down, then the
highest authority in the room should make a decission based on
fairness for all players & add the correct rule asap!
( House ) Rules that are in place dictate of course as management decission should be final.
Other players on the table are of course intitled to see the winning
hand with any showdown situation !

David Flusfeder (IFP – International federation of Poker)
Player A has conceded the pot; it goes to Player B. From the wording of the question, Player B pushing his/her hand over the line has happened after Player A has mucked his/her cards. Player B’s is therefore, as the questioner says, the last active hand and wins the pot. I don’t see how or why this could be ruled as a split pot.

Mob Verdict

We absolutely agree that there is problem with consistency in this area. Not only do different events rule differently but different dealers at the same event often seem to take varying approaches. The reason always cited for winning hands needing to be shown is to prevent chip dumping, but we feel that if not a complete red herring, this problem seems to be somewhat overstated. None of us can ever remember seeing a case of chip dumping being uncovered by enforcing a showdown, and while you may say this just proves that the rule works it's easy to see how it could be got round most of the time by the dumpee raising the dumper off the pot. We feel that if someone has genuine cause for concern they should be able to ask for the action to be stopped, to explain their concerns to the TD and to ask for mucked hands to be shown - showdown or not.

Out TDs are all in accord about awarding the pot to the last active hand. There really is no room for ambiguity here and no reason to award half the pot to the player who - on being called - opted to muck their hand.  However some cases may not be so clear (for example the dealer misses the fact that another player still has cards) and we think there is therefore a case for always showing cards in order to claim the pot.  After all you normally have to do this even when playing the board.

As we have said, there is no reason not to have consistency in this area.  If you do then as well as avoiding errors and injustices the game is sped up and there is less scope for angle shooting. In summary we would say that on showdown players should act in turn from the last aggressive action; On their turn each player should fold or show...quickly.  If a player mis-declares their hand without showing it, or pretends to muck in order to get another player to show first, or muck a winning hand, this should be subject to a penalty.  Anyone wishing to claim any part of the pot should show their hand. However, if as in this case, the calling playing is the last one with cards and mucks in turn they should still get the pot. Repeated refusal to show cards (or muck/show in good time when it's a player's turn to declare) should be subject to warnings and possible penalties.

Post your comments in the forum