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You are the Tournament Director Series 5: How Much does He Lose in this Pot?
This one happened to Darren Sprengers, a Mob Forum regular.
Player A shoves all in and it is Darren’s turn
Darren says to dealer "How many chips does he have"
Dealer says without counting the chips "around 8500 chips"
Darren checks his own stack and calls.
Player A wins the pot and the dealer counts his stack and says that will be 13500 chips
Darren says "hang on you said 8500 chips, if it was 13500 I would have folded"
How do you rule?
 Jack Effel
This falls under accepted action. It's the player’s responsibility to ensure the accuracy of another player's bet and/or all-in wager regardless of what is stated by the dealer and/or other players at the table. Darren accepted the action, and would be required to pay the full 13,500.
 Thomas Kremser
The dealer was giving an approximate chip count by saying “around 8500 chips” and Darren believed his estimation and therefore he has to lose 13500 – on the other side if Darren would have the winning hand than he would also have won 13500.
 David Lamb
I would have him pay the 8500. If the dealer estimate is incorrect, the bettor has an obligation to speak up. All he has to say is, “I don’t think that is what I have”. When you ask for a specific amount, I believe you are entitled to an accurate count.
 David Luzago
Darren must pay players A full stack even if the dealer made a mistake counting. Dealer´s guess is not mandatory. Player A announced or moved clearly All in so he will collect the total amount of his chips from Darren that should have been more aware of the other player full stack.
 Matt Savage
This is one of the toughest to make but we have made it clear that poker is a visual game as well and players are responsible before chips are put in the pot that it is clear what the amount is as they are responsible for the entire amount.
 Thomas Lamatsch
In this case, also when the dealer didn’t work perfect, it is the responsibility of the player to proof the announcement of the dealer and ask again for an exactly count!
Darren didn’t do this, so I would force him to call the 13500!
 JP McCann
I think it would be unfair to force Darren to call the full 13500 after he asked for a count and was told “around 8500”. The dealer has made a mistake, and the all-in player can have no recourse as he should have informed the dealer what the correct count was.
 FIDPA (The International Poker Rules) Ruling (Marcel Luske)
54.4 Dealers should only count and inform players of the amount to be called, if requested by a player with a live hand.
54.5 Players are responsible to visually verify the amount of the bet. If a situation arises whereas a wrong bet amount was announced, the calling player will be obligated to correct the amount of the bet.
Any player is responsable for his or her game and actions and understand that mistake s can happen,at all times, even in this case when it is verry unfortuned for the loosing player, we must concider that he or she could have won it as well.
The decission to pay the total 13.500 would be fair!
 David Flusfeder (IFP – International federation of Poker)
A: IFP rule #30: ACCEPTED ACTION: 'Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount.'
Sorry Darren, but it’s your responsibility to determine the size of the call, no matter how incompetent or careless the dealer has been.
Mob Verdict
Darren didn't ask the player for a count he asked the dealer, and the form of words he used: 'How many chips does he have?' amounted to a request for an exact or near exact sum.
It is true, as Matt Savage says, that poker is a visual game but a player has the right at any time to ask the dealer for a count of an opponent's chips. Were he to ask the player, the player would be under no obligation to respond beyond making sure his chips were clearly on view. The dealer on the other hand is obliged to respond and the player asking the question is entitled to an accurate answer. In this case it is slightly grey because the dealer didn't cut down the chips and give an exact figure, but in the absence of a correction from the called player we feel in all fairness that Darren was entitled to assume that the estimate was accurate.
The question is also begged, what if the dealer had cut down and counted the chips and still made a mistake and given Darren the wrong count? Would Darren have been entitled to more protection then? If you would answer yes, then you have to ask, what essentially is the difference. In both cases he has asked the dealer as is his right, and in both cases has relied on the dealer's reply rather than the evidence of his own eyes.
There is an obvious problem of course with allowing him to call an inaccurately estimated amount. How inaccurate is inaccurate? Should he have had to call 9,000, or 9,500? But notwithstanding this issue of where to draw the line, the dealer was clearly on the wrong side of it in this case. We would therefore in the interests of natural justice and for the good of the game, allow Darren to pay the 8,500 rather than the 13,500.
We are very much siding with the minority here but we feel that David Lamb and J P Mcann are seeing the bigger picture. We would also warn players to be more vigilant in checking what they are told, and explain to the dealer that he should not be so casual in responding to a request for a count.
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