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Pedro
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:08 am
Reply with quote
Hi Everyone,

I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner, which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)

Her are some questions that I have for all:

-What is a great book on learning poker odds, tells, and various strategies? Thus far, I have picked up "Mike Caro's Book of Tells", and it seems to be very good thus far.

-What are some basic strategies that all good poker players should follow (Ex: starting bankroll, general advice, when to definitely fold, etc.)

-What are the easiest tells to spot?

Basically, I play poker with a bunch of idiots; though they may possess common sense at the table, I think I can easily break the bank due to their lack of "true" poker knowledge, and the fact that they're high every time we play. Most importantly, I wanna be a graet poker player and move on to playing in several different social circles.

I appreciate all advice!
dan
One Pair


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:49 am
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i found mike caro's book of tells useful too although i have nearly finished it and will soon have to revert back to normal toilet paper.

my advice would be not to worry about tells but play sound poker. if your mates are as clueless/stoned as you say then play good starting hand and raise them well. avoid slow playing as i have found stoned people are more likely to call a bet then bet themselves. if you're interested in tells then look at their eyes, it's all there.

there are some useful tips on my website, you just have to LU-OOK FOR THEM,

dan.
www.deucedeuceclub.co.uk





--Previous Message--

: Hi Everyone,
:
: I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of
: friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner,
: which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I
: play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)
:
: Her are some questions that I have for all:
:
: -What is a great book on learning poker odds, tells, and various strategies?
: Thus far, I have picked up "Mike Caro's Book of Tells", and it seems to be very
: good thus far.
:
: -What are some basic strategies that all good poker players should follow (Ex:
: starting bankroll, general advice, when to definitely fold, etc.)
:
: -What are the easiest tells to spot?
:
: Basically, I play poker with a bunch of idiots; though they may possess common
: sense at the table, I think I can easily break the bank due to their lack of
: "true" poker knowledge, and the fact that they're high every time we play. Most
: importantly, I wanna be a graet poker player and move on to playing in several
: different social circles.
:
: I appreciate all advice!
_________________

www.deucedeuceclub.co.uk

Fray Bentos pies - it's all gravy
BigChunks
Flush


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 628
Location: Alloa, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:14 am
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--Previous Message--
: i found mike caro's book of tells useful too although i have nearly finished
: it and will soon have to revert back to normal toilet paper.
lol - it's not that bad!! - well maybe the vastly over estimated savings/gains are Smile

[snip]

: if you're interested in tells then look at their
: eyes, it's all there.
and their neck - thats always a good one. Sometimes you can actually see someones' shirt collar bounce up and down because they are so excited - lol

Dan, if you go to the bottom of your index page - it says that your counter code from Bravenet has changed.

all the best, see you in October at some point Smile


BigChunks.

PS: any decent curry houses around the event venue?


_________________
BigChunks.

---
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
dan
One Pair


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:37 pm
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cheers big chunks - forgot about counter on that page!

there's a good curry house in the bigg market - if you finish their hottest one then we all eat for free!

dan

--Previous Message--

: --Previous Message--
: i found mike caro's book of tells useful too although i have nearly finished
: it and will soon have to revert back to normal toilet paper.
: lol - it's not that bad!! - well maybe the vastly over estimated savings/gains
: are Smile
:
: [snip]
:
: if you're interested in tells then look at their
: eyes, it's all there.
: and their neck - thats always a good one. Sometimes you can actually see
: someones' shirt collar bounce up and down because they are so excited - lol
:
: Dan, if you go to the bottom of your index page - it says that your counter
: code from Bravenet has changed.
:
: all the best, see you in October at some point :
(...)
_________________

www.deucedeuceclub.co.uk

Fray Bentos pies - it's all gravy
BigChunks
Flush


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 628
Location: Alloa, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:41 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
--Previous Message--
: there's a good curry house in the bigg market - if you finish their hottest
: one then we all eat for free!
I have been known to eat a Faal curry - basically 15 scotch bonnets and some meat - lol

thanks for the info Dan, all the best mate,



Post Edited (24/9/2003, 4:42 pm)
_________________
BigChunks.

---
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
seventwo
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:33 pm
Reply with quote
Bluffing and reading tells is vastly over-estimated by beginners. First you must understand position, odds, pot odds, implied odds, survival strategy for tourneys and various other concepts. You can learn all of this from books (Slanski being the most popular), tells you must learn through playing. Bear in mind that if your friends are stoned, they won't even know if they have the winning hand, so how can they give anythig away to you. Even if you can put a loose player on a bluff, don't think you can force them out. Also remember that best place to find tells is in betting patterns.

--Previous Message--

: Hi Everyone,
:
: I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of
: friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner,
: which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I
: play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)
:
: Her are some questions that I have for all:
:
: -What is a great book on learning poker odds, tells, and various strategies?
: Thus far, I have picked up "Mike Caro's Book of Tells", and it seems to be very
: good thus far.
:
: -What are some basic strategies that all good poker players should follow (Ex:
: starting bankroll, general advice, when to definitely fold, etc.)
:
: -What are the easiest tells to spot?
:
: Basically, I play poker with a bunch of idiots; though they may possess common

(...)
PeterB
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:08 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
With reference to seventwo's comments about stoned opponents being unlikely to give away accurate information, I can give a live example. Playing PLO against a reasonably strong table with a couple of weak players, I had the second-nut flush on the turn. Player one checked, I bet the pot, and the player on my left lit up like a Christmas tree, reraising me the pot and going all-in. First player thinks and calls, and I throw my by-now rubbish hand away, since one of them obviously has the nut flush. Last card changes nothing, bringing a board of something like 4H 8H KS 9H 2D. Last player shouts
"FULL HOUSE, any way you like!", laying down 8892. "Er, no", says everyone else. First player shows 6H 7H 5S 4D and scoops a nice-sized pot with his non-nut flush. "I couldn't fold with a draw to the straight flush", he said....

Pete

--Previous Message--

: Bluffing and reading tells is vastly over-estimated by beginners. First you
: must understand position, odds, pot odds, implied odds, survival strategy for
: tourneys and various other concepts. You can learn all of this from books
: (Slanski being the most popular), tells you must learn through playing. Bear in
: mind that if your friends are stoned, they won't even know if they have the
: winning hand, so how can they give anythig away to you. Even if you can put a
: loose player on a bluff, don't think you can force them out. Also remember that
: best place to find tells is in betting patterns.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Hi Everyone,
:
: I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of
: friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner,
: which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I
: play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)
:
: Her are some questions that I have for all:

(...)
MattJ
Straight


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:17 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Hi,

I agree with most of the other replies. The most important factor is making sure that you know sound basic strategy. There is no substitute. The advantage you gain over your opponents from physical tells pales in comparison to the advantage you gain by using sound strategy when they are not. Where do you find out how to employ sound strategy? Two places - books and experience. Books can hasten your development rapidly and the more you play, the more you learn how to employ what you have read and adjust to individual circumstances.

What books? Take your pick. Sklansky is good but very 'dry'. It's not very interesting or well written. For tourneys the Cloutier McEvoy series are good, but not aimed at your average small buy in tourney. Bob Caffione has written some OK books, as has John Vorhaus. Lou Krieger's books are also excellent. These mostly (not caffione) deal with US limit poker, but are rather good at teaching sound basic strategy. Depending on the form of the game you play you will have to slightly (or even radically) adjust.

If you are a complete novice i would recommend Hellmuth's book. A lot of people slag it off as 'incomplete' and too basic for an experienced player. These were my initial thoughts too. With some reflection, however, it is a gem of a book for newcomers to the game. It is very easy to understand, well explained and contains many useful ideas for the begginer, especially concerning strategies for beating poor opponents. His 'top ten only' strategy does work at low limits without doubt, i've seen it. People are just to dumb at low limits to notice you only play premium cards.

This brings me on to your final point about 'tells'. the most useful 'tells' you will find are at your level are in BETTING PATTERNS. Learn to be very observant about the types of cards your opponents play and how they bet them and various other situations. If you can observe and remember you will be on the right path to becoming a successful player. this is so much more valuable than discerning a certain opponent wiggles his ears if he bluffs.

If you combine the observation, memory and sound basic strategy you'll do OK. I'm not sure of your level but read the Hellmuth book too. Until the last few months i had never really played 7-cards stud in my life. I read the book's sections on 7-stud & its hi/lo form. It seemed to make sense and i played in some tourneys. The first one i played i placed 5th out of a few hundred, the second i won. All i did was apply what i knew from other forms of poker - OBSERVATION OBSERVATION OBSERVATION (+ some concept of tournament strategy) - and some of the basic strategy that the book taught. Yeah i got lucky, but its a tournamnet (another subject...). As a newbie concerning 7-stud hi/lo especially i found the book very useful. Not useful for the experienced player or the higher stakes player, but great for the uninitiated.

Good luck
MattJ




--Previous Message--

: Hi Everyone,
:
: I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of
: friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner,
: which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I
: play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)
:
: Her are some questions that I have for all:
:
: -What is a great book on learning poker odds, tells, and various strategies?
: Thus far, I have picked up "Mike Caro's Book of Tells", and it seems to be very
: good thus far.
:
: -What are some basic strategies that all good poker players should follow (Ex:
: starting bankroll, general advice, when to definitely fold, etc.)
:
: -What are the easiest tells to spot?
:
: Basically, I play poker with a bunch of idiots; though they may possess common

(...)
_________________
???
John Le Huquet
One Pair


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:40 pm
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Really useful stuff for us beginners, all this - seventwo, Pete B and Matt J in particular should take a bow; your posts are an encouragement to novices like me.

Having wheeled out the back patting machine, can I take you chaps back to your very earliest days of playing poker and ask for a perspective on a muddled thought of mine?

I am playing a lot of small b&m tourneys at the moment to try and apply some of the stuff I have read, but on a basic "poker is a jungle" level the difficulty I am experiencing consistently is this:

I try and wait for premium hands, but judiciously lessen my starting criteria in late position. Trouble is, it feels like nine times out of ten someone inevitably raises the pot (let's say it's pot limit 10 to 20 tourneys with three buys-ins). Regardless of whether they are in front of me or behind me, up goes that pot.

You are then left in a very lonely place. I don't think they have a read on me particularly, but you immediately face the choice of an expensive call/re-raise or seeing a flop as rarely as Halley's Comet (or so it feels).

I know that all poker players face exactly the same scenario, and I could as easily be poacher as gamekeeper. I know also that not as many people bluff as a non-poker player might believe. But I also doubt whether it means the raiser always has a premium hand (say JJ or higher, to be generous). If that were so, it means a game of premium hand wins every time, which clearly ain't the case.

Maybe I'm just toying with filth and am not as patient as I though I was. But I'm having trouble breaking out of this syndrome, which leaves me feeling like a passive player who isn't really involved.

Incidentally, I try mixing up my game now and again by raising very occasionally with, say, suited connectors, just to mix things up. But I always seemed to get re-raised right up.

Does anyone else remember feeling like this in their early days? I am confused because it feels like an emotional or "big picture" problem, and yet I suspect the answer is in the detail of knowing the game.

Anyone know what I mean? Any empathy or suggestions?

Cheers

John Le H.

--Previous Message--

: Hi,
:
: I agree with most of the other replies. The most important factor is
: making sure that you know sound basic strategy. There is no substitute. The
: advantage you gain over your opponents from physical tells pales in comparison
: to the advantage you gain by using sound strategy when they are not. Where do
: you find out how to employ sound strategy? Two places - books and experience.
: Books can hasten your development rapidly and the more you play, the more you
: learn how to employ what you have read and adjust to individual circumstances.
:
: What books? Take your pick. Sklansky is good but very 'dry'. It's not
: very interesting or well written. For tourneys the Cloutier McEvoy series are
: good, but not aimed at your average small buy in tourney. Bob Caffione has
: written some OK books, as has John Vorhaus. Lou Krieger's books are also
: excellent. These mostly (not caffione) deal with US limit poker, but are rather
: good at teaching sound basic strategy. Depending on the form of the game you
: play you will have to slightly (or even radically) adjust.
:
: If you are a complete novice i would recommend Hellmuth's book. A lot of

(...)
_________________
JLeH
MattJ
Straight


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:07 pm
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I'm in a rush right now i'll post your requested response later.

But quickly:

PLH games at that level frequently become a game of stealing the blinds when you reach a certain level in the tournament. That's the way it goes. The large blinds also make the game play much more like no limit, which i read someone very aptly describe as '2 card chicken'. For low stakes this can very much reply.

To solve the problem? Complicated. If you play very regularly with the same players i might suggest to make a stand once in a while and shove the rest of your chips in over the top. It doesn't pay off in the short term and can embarrass you on occaision. But good, observant players will soon learn not to **** with you and risk getting drawn out on etc etc, its probably a question of table image. Its a bit more complicated, you have to be careful about the circumstances in which you get aggressive. i can't advise you now - need to be in London for a game tonight.

Later when i have time i will post an old story from tyhe Dundee card room to highlight some of the issues.
MattJ

ps. sorry about the rushed response



--Previous Message--

: Really useful stuff for us beginners, all this - seventwo, Pete B and Matt J
: in particular should take a bow; your posts are an encouragement to novices like
: me.
:
: Having wheeled out the back patting machine, can I take you chaps back to your
: very earliest days of playing poker and ask for a perspective on a muddled
: thought of mine?
:
: I am playing a lot of small b&m tourneys at the moment to try and apply some
: of the stuff I have read, but on a basic "poker is a jungle" level the
: difficulty I am experiencing consistently is this:
:
: I try and wait for premium hands, but judiciously lessen my starting criteria
: in late position. Trouble is, it feels like nine times out of ten someone
: inevitably raises the pot (let's say it's pot limit 10 to 20 tourneys with
: three buys-ins). Regardless of whether they are in front of me or behind me, up
: goes that pot.
:
: You are then left in a very lonely place. I don't think they have a read on me

(...)
_________________
???
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:21 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
I've witnessed the opposite with stoned players.

One of my mates becomes almost transparent in his play when stoned: he scowls uncontrollably when a card misses his draw, he can't hide a smile when he connects with a flop, or spikes a draw.

But I'd agree that stoners who aren't really into the game are hard to figure out.

Dylan

--Previous Message--

: Bluffing and reading tells is vastly over-estimated by beginners. First you
: must understand position, odds, pot odds, implied odds, survival strategy for
: tourneys and various other concepts. You can learn all of this from books
: (Slanski being the most popular), tells you must learn through playing. Bear in
: mind that if your friends are stoned, they won't even know if they have the
: winning hand, so how can they give anythig away to you. Even if you can put a
: loose player on a bluff, don't think you can force them out. Also remember that
: best place to find tells is in betting patterns.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Hi Everyone,
:
: I'd say at the moment I'm an amateur at poker. I play with a set group of
: friends and play the same games, but I am not coming out a consistent winner,
: which is really irritating because I am really good at reading people, and I
: play with total stoners! (I figure these people can be easy to beat)
:
: Her are some questions that I have for all:

(...)
steveyboy
Straight


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:43 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
lol Dylan, does Ben read this forum?

--Previous Message--

: I've witnessed the opposite with stoned players.
:
: One of my mates becomes almost transparent in his play when stoned: he scowls
: uncontrollably when a card misses his draw, he can't hide a smile when he
: connects with a flop, or spikes a draw.
:
: But I'd agree that stoners who aren't really into the game are hard to figure
: out.
:
: Dylan
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Bluffing and reading tells is vastly over-estimated by beginners. First you
: must understand position, odds, pot odds, implied odds, survival strategy for
: tourneys and various other concepts. You can learn all of this from books
: (Slanski being the most popular), tells you must learn through playing. Bear
: in
: mind that if your friends are stoned, they won't even know if they have the

(...)
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:06 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Not sure. If he did, my defense was going to be that I didn't name him...

He knows it anyway, I hope.

Dylan

--Previous Message--

: lol Dylan, does Ben read this forum?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: I've witnessed the opposite with stoned players.
:
: One of my mates becomes almost transparent in his play when stoned: he scowls
: uncontrollably when a card misses his draw, he can't hide a smile when he
: connects with a flop, or spikes a draw.
:
: But I'd agree that stoners who aren't really into the game are hard to figure
: out.
:
: Dylan
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Bluffing and reading tells is vastly over-estimated by beginners. First you
: must understand position, odds, pot odds, implied odds, survival strategy for

(...)
seventwo
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:03 pm
Reply with quote
This may help (sorry I don't know how to post a link properly):

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/samuel21.htm

--Previous Message--

: Really useful stuff for us beginners, all this - seventwo, Pete B and Matt J
: in particular should take a bow; your posts are an encouragement to novices like
: me.
:
: Having wheeled out the back patting machine, can I take you chaps back to your
: very earliest days of playing poker and ask for a perspective on a muddled
: thought of mine?
:
: I am playing a lot of small b&m tourneys at the moment to try and apply some
: of the stuff I have read, but on a basic "poker is a jungle" level the
: difficulty I am experiencing consistently is this:
:
: I try and wait for premium hands, but judiciously lessen my starting criteria
: in late position. Trouble is, it feels like nine times out of ten someone
: inevitably raises the pot (let's say it's pot limit 10 to 20 tourneys with
: three buys-ins). Regardless of whether they are in front of me or behind me, up
: goes that pot.
:
: You are then left in a very lonely place. I don't think they have a read on me

(...)
John Le Huquet
One Pair


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:17 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
--Previous Message--

: Really useful stuff for us beginners, all this - seventwo, Pete B and Matt J
: in particular should take a bow; your posts are an encouragement to novices like
: me.
:
: Having wheeled out the back patting machine, can I take you chaps back to your
: very earliest days of playing poker and ask for a perspective on a muddled
: thought of mine?
:
: I am playing a lot of small b&m tourneys at the moment to try and apply some
: of the stuff I have read, but on a basic "poker is a jungle" level the
: difficulty I am experiencing consistently is this:
:
: I try and wait for premium hands, but judiciously lessen my starting criteria
: in late position. Trouble is, it feels like nine times out of ten someone
: inevitably raises the pot (let's say it's pot limit 10 to 20 tourneys with
: three buys-ins). Regardless of whether they are in front of me or behind me, up
: goes that pot.
:
: You are then left in a very lonely place. I don't think they have a read on me

(...)
_________________
JLeH
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