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El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:06 am
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I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is restricted to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really experienced it elsewhere.

Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp... I make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The five are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft playing each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say something when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and the other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they both gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the embarrassment makes no difference and on it went.

The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do with the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the game.

Any thoughts?

redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:20 am
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Was this in a Casino?

Did you call for the floorperson to intervene? It is almost certainly in the rules of the cardroom that "soft playing" is not allowed as it is cheating and a warning if not a disqualification would be possible consequence.

--Previous Message--

: I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is restricted
: to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really experienced it
: elsewhere.
:
: Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp... I
: make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The five
: are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft playing
: each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say something
: when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and the
: other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they both
: gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the embarrassment
: makes no difference and on it went.
:
: The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do with
: the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the game.
:
:
: Any thoughts?
:


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:24 am
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Indeed it was... and their was no intervention despite my gripes. I suppose in future I should formalise my compaint and ensure the floorman does something about it. In this instance I did not.

--Previous Message--

: Was this in a Casino?
:
: Did you call for the floorperson to intervene? It is almost certainly in the
: rules of the cardroom that "soft playing" is not allowed as it is cheating and a
: warning if not a disqualification would be possible consequence.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: restricted
: : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: experienced it
: : elsewhere.
: :
: : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp...
: I
: : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The
: five
: : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: playing
: : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: something
: : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and
: the
: : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: both
: : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: embarrassment
: : makes no difference and on it went.
: :
: : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: with
: : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: game.
: :
: :
: : Any thoughts?
: :
:

Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:51 am
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I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.

We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment rather than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.

Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning 5 home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain amount of friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players check a board down because a short stack is all-in.

Dylan


--Previous Message--

: I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is restricted
: to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really experienced it
: elsewhere.
:
: Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp... I
: make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The five
: are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft playing
: each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say something
: when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and the
: other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they both
: gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the embarrassment
: makes no difference and on it went.
:
: The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do with
: the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the game.
:
:
: Any thoughts?
:
El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:09 am
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
I would agree that tactical checking when a player is all-in is, in most cases, sound play but when it's a final table and several players are working against one I think it's not so acceptable. I play in a lot of comps and for the life of me I can't understand peoples rationale... surely the point of playing in a comp is to win.

Even the mob play against each other right?

--Previous Message--

: I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of
: the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.
:
: We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my
: mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my
: attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment rather
: than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.
:
: Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied
: collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning 5
: home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain amount of
: friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players check
: a board down because a short stack is all-in.
:
: Dylan
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: restricted
: : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: experienced it
: : elsewhere.
: :
: : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp...
: I
: : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The
: five
: : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: playing
: : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: something
: : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and
: the
: : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: both
: : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: embarrassment
: : makes no difference and on it went.
: :
: : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: with
: : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: game.
: :
: :
: : Any thoughts?
: :

redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:25 am
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
No it's cheating, and completely different from checking down vs an all-in which is a legtimate and accepted tournament practice.

If I'm allin vs two or more other players with a small or empty sidepot, I wouldn't complain if they've checked it down. In fact I would expect it!



--I just think that a certain amount of
: friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players check
: a board down because a short stack is all-in.
:
: Dylan
:
:


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

PeterB
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:47 am
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Sorry Dylan, but if you are playing in the same tournament as a friend and you check down because you do not want to knock him out, my view is that you are not playing the game as the rules require. I understand the point that you are making, but the best thing for you to do is to make it clear that, once the tournament starts, you are playing for yourself and yourself alone. That way any possible ill feeling is eliminated should the circumstance arise. By acting in the better interests of your friend you are by definition acting against the interests of another player and could be seen to be acting as a team. Team play is against the rules.

The difference between the "checking down" example you quote and the more atrocious example of team cheating that David came across is that the "check down" would take place no matter who the all-in opponent was. The players are both acting in their own self-interest by checking.

Incidentally, if you REALLY want to wind up a "MOG" (miserable old git) in a live tournament, then bet at him on the river in such a situation if you think there is a chance that you are beating the all-in player, but that you are not beating the MOG. If the difference in position is something like 7th, 8th and 9th, the elimination of the all-in player is not such a significant factor. And the joy at watching the MOG fold and then go apoplectic when your "marginal" hand beats the all-in is unparalleled.

This is the only time this month that the coach will come out of the car park.....

Pete

--Previous Message--

: I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of
: the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.
:
: We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my
: mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my
: attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment rather
: than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.
:
: Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied
: collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning 5
: home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain amount of
: friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players check
: a board down because a short stack is all-in.
:
: Dylan
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: restricted
: : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: experienced it
: : elsewhere.
: :
: : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp...
: I
: : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The
: five
: : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: playing
: : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: something
: : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and
: the
: : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: both
: : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: embarrassment
: : makes no difference and on it went.
: :
: : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: with
: : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: game.
: :
: :
: : Any thoughts?
: :
steveyboy
Straight


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:28 pm
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This Post reminds me of a rather embarrassing game of poker which happened online earlier this year. There was an Online PL Holdem tournament between Oxford and Cambridge University, the tournament was a little unusual, it didn't matter which individual won as they won it for their university and there were no individual cash prizes. Cambridge Players did well to get eight people to the final table and where up against just one Oxford player.

In this situation it really should be team poker, but that seemed to go against everyone?s instincts. In the end the guy from Oxford won and everyone from Cambridge went home red faced.

Does anybody have any ideas for the most effective strategy for eight players to knock out one player who knows this is their goal?


Steveyboy

PS. After this defeat we managed re-group and beat Oxford in what really counted, the Heads up series.

update: just testing the editing facility!

Post Edited (24/9/2003, 2:35 pm)
El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:21 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Well I for one am glad the coach didn't stay in the garage. A very eloquent and well argued response. Bravo;)

--Previous Message--

: Sorry Dylan, but if you are playing in the same tournament as a friend and you
: check down because you do not want to knock him out, my view is that you are not
: playing the game as the rules require. I understand the point that you are
: making, but the best thing for you to do is to make it clear that, once the
: tournament starts, you are playing for yourself and yourself alone. That way any
: possible ill feeling is eliminated should the circumstance arise. By acting in
: the better interests of your friend you are by definition acting against the
: interests of another player and could be seen to be acting as a team. Team play
: is against the rules.
:
: The difference between the "checking down" example you quote and the more
: atrocious example of team cheating that David came across is that the "check
: down" would take place no matter who the all-in opponent was. The players are
: both acting in their own self-interest by checking.
:
: Incidentally, if you REALLY want to wind up a "MOG" (miserable old git) in a
: live tournament, then bet at him on the river in such a situation if you think
: there is a chance that you are beating the all-in player, but that you are not
: beating the MOG. If the difference in position is something like 7th, 8th and
: 9th, the elimination of the all-in player is not such a significant factor. And
: the joy at watching the MOG fold and then go apoplectic when your "marginal"
: hand beats the all-in is unparalleled.
:
: This is the only time this month that the coach will come out of the car
: park.....
:
: Pete
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of
: : the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.
: :
: : We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my
: : mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my
: : attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment
: rather
: : than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.
: :
: : Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied
: : collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning
: 5
: : home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain
: amount of
: : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players
: check
: : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: :
: : Dylan
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: : restricted
: : : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: : experienced it
: : : elsewhere.
: : :
: : : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a
: comp...
: : I
: : : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table.
: The
: : five
: : : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: : playing
: : : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: : something
: : : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight
: and
: : the
: : : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: : both
: : : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: : embarrassment
: : : makes no difference and on it went.
: : :
: : : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: : with
: : : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: : game.
: : :
: : :
: : : Any thoughts?
: : :
El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:24 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
I suppose if you play solid poker and only act when you're ahead then you stand a chance, the trouble is, when there's so many people out to get you it's almost inevitable that you'll get outdrawn by hands that shouldn't even be involved.

--Previous Message--

: This Post reminds me of a rather embarrassing game of poker which happened
: online earlier this year. There was an Online PL Holdem tournament between
: Oxford and Cambridge University, the tournament was a little unusual, it didn't
: matter which individual won as they won it for their university and there were
: no individual cash prizes. Cambridge Players did well to get eight people to the
: final table and where up against just one Oxford player.
:
: In this situation it really should be team poker, but that seemed to go
: against everyones instincts. In the end the guy from Oxford won and everyone
: from Cambridge went home red faced.
:
: Does anybody have any ideas for the most effective strategy for eight players
: to knock out one player who knows this is their goal?
:
:
: Steveyboy
:
: PS. After this defeat we managed re-group and beat Oxford in what really
: counted, the Heads up series.
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:44 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
I knew there'd be responses condemning what I said. I'm just trying to be honest to somebody who might wonder what kind of 'cooperation' goes on in tournaments.

Everyone knows this behaviour exists in cardrooms but I think it's important to distinguish between the malevolent kind such as the situation described in the original post, and situations I would consider harmless: you fold a hand pre-flop that you normally wouldn't because your mate raised a few seats to your right, he's shortstacked and you don't want to knock him out.

In the latter situation it could be said that the perpetrator is the victim of his own actions. I don't consider this a serious breach of the rules but I admit its very unprofessional.

I'll give an example from a tournament I played in Dublin a few months ago. I was at a table where there were two brothers at opposite ends of the table. One takes a big hit and is left with very few chips, only slightly more than one BB. He shoves them all in preflop next hand, and its folded round to his brother on the BB who thinks briefly and folds despite the fact that he was getting monstrous pot odds to call against an all-in player.

Were the cries of disgust and demands for justice heard from the other players? No. I'd probably have done the same in the situation. Though this is cooperative behaviour (not collusive mind) I wouldn't classify it as dispicable cheating.

Anyone agree? Cast the stones...


--Previous Message--

: I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of
: the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.
:
: We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my
: mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my
: attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment rather
: than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.
:
: Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied
: collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning 5
: home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain amount of
: friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players check
: a board down because a short stack is all-in.
:
: Dylan
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: restricted
: : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: experienced it
: : elsewhere.
: :
: : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a comp...
: I
: : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table. The
: five
: : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: playing
: : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: something
: : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight and
: the
: : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: both
: : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: embarrassment
: : makes no difference and on it went.
: :
: : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: with
: : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: game.
: :
: :
: : Any thoughts?
: :
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:59 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
The fact that you wouldn't complain if two opponents check down when you were all-in doesn't legitimise the action.

I'm not saying checking down against an all-in opponent is wrong. All I'm saying is just because its accepted, generally practiced and people don't complain about it doesn't mean it isn't against the rules.

It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites (ultimate bet for example).


Dylan



--Previous Message--

: No it's cheating, and completely different from checking down vs an all-in
: which is a legtimate and accepted tournament practice.
:
: If I'm allin vs two or more other players with a small or empty sidepot, I
: wouldn't complain if they've checked it down. In fact I would expect it!
:
:
:
: --I just think that a certain amount of
: : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players
: check
: : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: :
: : Dylan
: :
: :
:
El Bandido
Two Pair


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:04 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
Surely not... in a tourney the object of the game is survival. Knocking players by checking em out is a sound strategy.

--Previous Message--

: The fact that you wouldn't complain if two opponents check down when you were
: all-in doesn't legitimise the action.
:
: I'm not saying checking down against an all-in opponent is wrong. All I'm
: saying is just because its accepted, generally practiced and people don't
: complain about it doesn't mean it isn't against the rules.
:
: It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites (ultimate
: bet for example).
:
:
: Dylan
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : No it's cheating, and completely different from checking down vs an all-in
: : which is a legtimate and accepted tournament practice.
: :
: : If I'm allin vs two or more other players with a small or empty sidepot, I
: : wouldn't complain if they've checked it down. In fact I would expect it!
: :
: :
: :
: : --I just think that a certain amount of
: : : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when
: players
: : check
: : : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: : :
: : : Dylan
: : :
: : :
: :

redsimon
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:15 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote


I just hope I'm never on a table with you and your friends!


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:21 pm
View user's profile Send private message Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
As I tried to convey in my previous post, I agree that checking down a hand is sound stratey. That is not the criterion by which it is to be judged as fair or unfair.

(I'm kind of confusing myself trying to explain what my point is, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not being clear.)

What I'm trying to say is that when I'm playing in a tournament I often check hands down against all-in opponents, I also confess that I occasionally play a hand slightly differently if I don't want to knock my best mate out (I'm not talking about chip dumping, more about avoiding confrontations). Both of these practices are against the rules as (or if) they are written in many cardrooms and poker sites.

I don't consider either cheating, just like I don't consider driving at 51mph in a 50mph zone speeding.

--Previous Message--

: Surely not... in a tourney the object of the game is survival. Knocking
: players by checking em out is a sound strategy.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : The fact that you wouldn't complain if two opponents check down when you
: were
: : all-in doesn't legitimise the action.
: :
: : I'm not saying checking down against an all-in opponent is wrong. All I'm
: : saying is just because its accepted, generally practiced and people don't
: : complain about it doesn't mean it isn't against the rules.
: :
: : It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites (ultimate
: : bet for example).
: :
: :
: : Dylan
: :
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : No it's cheating, and completely different from checking down vs an
: all-in
: : : which is a legtimate and accepted tournament practice.
: : :
: : : If I'm allin vs two or more other players with a small or empty sidepot,
: I
: : : wouldn't complain if they've checked it down. In fact I would expect it!
: : :
: : :
: : :
: : : --I just think that a certain amount of
: : : : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when
: : players
: : : check
: : : : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: : : :
: : : : Dylan
: : : :
: : : :
: : :
:
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