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Simon Galloway
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Joined: 14 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:05 pm
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link to an article - loads of pop-ups etc so advise pasting into Word first.....

Click Here

Fairly heavy duty - but readable. Quite disturbing to see that once you crack the starting seed, you have a cold deck. This includes knowing or at least significantly narrowing down other player's hands and eventual board.

Why don't they (or do they?)run seperate generations for each and every card? I can't see that it would reduce performance - I know you have to perform seperate generations for approx half the deck, but that's still way less than starting with {52!} permutations.

At least there will be no logical link between card combinations.
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Rickfish
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:00 pm
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As I understand it the problem is that they always start with a sorted deck, i.e. an array in sequence 1 to 52. Then they randomize using a seed that is limited by the permutations of the time.

In programs I have written I always leave the deck shuffled from the previous hand and reseed the randomiser at least once per shuffle.
FFFC1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:07 pm
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Erm, how do you generate your new seed ?

--Previous Message--

: As I understand it the problem is that they always start with a sorted deck,
: i.e. an array in sequence 1 to 52. Then they randomize using a seed that is
: limited by the permutations of the time.
:
: In programs I have written I always leave the deck shuffled from the previous
: hand and reseed the randomiser at least once per shuffle.
old hat
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:04 pm
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this article is ancient
we have seen it before
dated sept99 and june 2001!
the site looks an abortion too.

--Previous Message--

: link to an article - loads of pop-ups etc so advise pasting into Word
: first.....
:
: Click Here
:
: Fairly heavy duty - but readable. Quite disturbing to see that once you crack
: the starting seed, you have a cold deck. This includes knowing or at least
: significantly narrowing down other player's hands and eventual board.
:
: Why don't they (or do they?)run seperate generations for each and every card?
: I can't see that it would reduce performance - I know you have to perform
: seperate generations for approx half the deck, but that's still way less than
: starting with {52!} permutations.
:
: At least there will be no logical link between card combinations.
Rickfish
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:14 am
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Nothing clever, still based on time. The point is that starting with a shuffled deck makes it virtually impossible to predict or spot any patterns even if it is true that the number of shuffles is less than 52!.

--Previous Message--

: Erm, how do you generate your new seed ?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : As I understand it the problem is that they always start with a sorted
: deck,
: : i.e. an array in sequence 1 to 52. Then they randomize using a seed that is
: : limited by the permutations of the time.
: :
: : In programs I have written I always leave the deck shuffled from the
: previous
: : hand and reseed the randomiser at least once per shuffle.
Suredeath
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:14 pm
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All currently available pokersites' programs use 'new technology' 64 bit PRNGs (or better) for deck shuffling. For seeds many 'real random' data is used like the combined mouse movement details from players using the software, time between actions etc. I have however understood there still are some concerns wrt 'randomness' of decks at SOME sites. www.casinomeister.com supposedly has some info on that. (Casinomeister sort of acts as reliable thirdparty in disputes between customers and site owners. Bookmark it!)
Larry
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:53 pm
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Hi Rickfish!
Do you have a program for multyplayer poker?
I'm interested in bying one.

--Previous Message--

: Nothing clever, still based on time. The point is that starting with a
: shuffled deck makes it virtually impossible to predict or spot any patterns even
: if it is true that the number of shuffles is less than 52!.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Erm, how do you generate your new seed ?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : As I understand it the problem is that they always start with a sorted
: deck,
: : i.e. an array in sequence 1 to 52. Then they randomize using a seed that is
: : limited by the permutations of the time.
: :
: : In programs I have written I always leave the deck shuffled from the
: previous
: : hand and reseed the randomiser at least once per shuffle.
Rickfish
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:23 am
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Hi Larry,

No, I always intended to write one, and even half-heartedly started one, but never got around to it. If I do write one I'd want it to be able to remember how you play against it so that it can adjust its play accordingly.

You could try Andy Ward's program.


--Previous Message--

: Hi Rickfish!
: Do you have a program for multyplayer poker?
: I'm interested in bying one.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Nothing clever, still based on time. The point is that starting with a
: shuffled deck makes it virtually impossible to predict or spot any patterns
: even
: if it is true that the number of shuffles is less than 52!.
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Erm, how do you generate your new seed ?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : As I understand it the problem is that they always start with a sorted
: deck,

(...)
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