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Daniel
Straight


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:08 am
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I won this hand, and got a double up, which was great, but i'm worried I played it wrong and got lucky? Should I have re-raised pre flop? Should I have bet out instead? What do you think of the 77 min re-raise pre flop? I actually went on to win the sng Cool but cant help thinking I didnt actually play my best, this hand is just one example. Any thoughts would be very welcome.
bunthorne
Straight


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:55 pm
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It is important to mix up your play in order to throw opponents off. Assuming your intention was not to do that in this hand.....

I would have raised more preflop n the first place with JJ. Your raise is a little too small for my liking and invites players with high cards who have position on you to call. Should anyone do so, if an overcard falls on the flop then you don't know where you are.

His re-raise with 77 is terrible. I am not a great advocate of playing small pairs in this way as it is asking for trouble, IMO. I see small pairs overplayed time and time again and here is yet another example.

When faced with this mini re-raise, I would come right back over the top of him with a big, and I mean big, re-re-raise (4bet I think they call it) to try and end the pot there and then. If he responds by raising you yet again, throw your JJ away. If he calls, you will have to evaluate the flop and play accordingly which is not ideal, so you really want to take the pot down now if you can and the big re-re-raise gives you the chance of doing this.
Seb
Full House


Joined: 29 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:15 pm
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You want all the chips in on the flop so it's probably better to lead out. His weird reraise preflop makes me want to play more straightforwardly against him; don't try to get in his head.
the shiver
LMS Champion


Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 1591

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:00 am
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bunthorne wrote:

His re-raise with 77 is terrible. I am not a great advocate of playing small pairs in this way as it is asking for trouble, IMO. I see small pairs overplayed time and time again and here is yet another example.


Playing devils advocate here...If the flop comes down King high...who wins this pot bunt with the same pre flop action

Would you marry jacks in that spot?

Im just saying i think hes pressurizing the jacks and alot of flops hes gonna take this pot down, albeit at times hes gonna find trouble but you can rarely if ever win a tournie with the best hand from start to finish
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bunthorne
Straight


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:29 am
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the shiver wrote:


Playing devils advocate here...If the flop comes down King high...who wins this pot bunt with the same pre flop action

Would you marry jacks in that spot?


The JJ will have to lead out on the flop to find out if his hand is any good. That isn't ideal, but it must be done as checking the flop invites the 77 to bet the flop and possibly take the pot down. When the JJ bets, if the 77 re-raises, the JJ must re-evaluate but is in a tough situation. This illustrates the importance of position and why I advocate re-re-raising to try and take the pot down preflop, but also why I suggest raising more in the first place.

Calling with 77 preflop is quite reasonable as the 77 has position on the JJ. That is how I would have played it in light of the small raise before me. But re-raising in the way he did invites the JJ to play right back at him which is why I do not like that move by the 77. He cannot reasonably call a big re-reraise with a small pair.

Quote:
but you can rarely if ever win a tournie with the best hand from start to finish


I agree entirely and it always makes me smile inwardly when I hear players moaning when they have lost a pot when holding the best hand preflop. They labour under the misapprehension that the best hand is entitled to stand up all the way to the river and win the pot. It is often the case that they would have won the pot had they played it differently.
Daniel
Straight


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:15 pm
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Thanks for the replys! I think I probably should be leading out on the flop, my only thoughts were, that if the 77 had re-raised, (Thinking I was c-betting and having missed), I would probably have had to fold there? Although, as you say, a healthy re-raise pre flop should see the thing ended much quicker. I think I just got a little put off with his min re-raise as I had not seen him do that yet.

My main question is around my first raise. You think it should be more. Is that because its JJ?, or my position?, or every raise in an sng should be more than 2.5, which is my usual bet unless there is action before me. (Raising the same pre all the time, makes it hard to know if I am stealing or have a hand?) But perhaps the early stages should be raised more, and then lower as the blinds increase? My main concern was my stack was already below 1,500, the other players had seemed to be calling too much, so I expected a call, even for 200 chips, and didnt want to be playing too much of an inflated pot, out of position, when I couldnt really affored to make a large c-bet and fold. Anyway, main question though please, should the normal raise with all hands be more than 2.5 at this stage of the sng?
bunthorne
Straight


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:23 pm
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Daniel wrote:
I think I probably should be leading out on the flop, my only thoughts were, that if the 77 had re-raised, (Thinking I was c-betting and having missed), I would probably have had to fold there?


If you lead out on the flop and he re-raises with 77, he is asking for trouble. He might be walking into an overpair; which, of course, is precisely what you are holding! If he thinks you have missed the flop he is better calling and seeing what you do on the turn. This lets his position work for him. In all probability you would check on the turn if you missed the flop and turn; then he could make a move at the pot with his 77 if he wished.

Quote:
My main question is around my first raise. You think it should be more. Is that because its JJ?, or my position?,


Both. You want to make an effort to end the hand now and not let the players still to act come in cheaply, have position on you, and outdraw you.

Quote:
(Raising the same pre all the time, makes it hard to know if I am stealing or have a hand?)


Possibly, but I would prefer varying the size of your raises constantly to throw your opponents off, even with monster hands. Of course, this is only effective if your opponents are the type who watch the size of your raise. But good players will be doing so.

Quote:
My main concern was my stack was already below 1,500, the other players had seemed to be calling too much, so I expected a call, even for 200 chips, and didnt want to be playing too much of an inflated pot, out of position,


All the more reason to raise more preflop to try and win the hand.

Quote:
should the normal raise with all hands be more than 2.5 at this stage of the sng?


It sounds as if you are treating all sngs in the same way which is very dangerous and not-advised. You would be better off watching how the players in this particular sng respond to raises. See what size of raises are taking pots down, and what size of raises are being called, and then raise accordingly. These amounts will no doubt change as the tournament progresses and the blinds increase, so you need to be vigilant and see what is happening.
Daniel
Straight


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:44 pm
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Thanks for the detailed response. I do try to pay attention to the players, and try to see who is calling light, do min raises get through, etc. Just in the early stages there might not be enough info for that. But I do think I might need to adjust my game a bit. I used to raise 2.5 times the BB and c-bet 3/4 of the pot hit or miss, (occassionally check calling, check raising, check folding, doing something a bit different for deception). But in the early stages, my strategy would be 2.5 then 3/4 pot bet. I think I should try a larger pre flop bet, with a smaller c-bet on the flop, maybe 1/3 or 1/2 depending on the flop. (This is without much knowledge of the players, strategy would change depending on wether I view them as TAG, LAG, calling station etc. Thanks again!
SirBetAlot86
Two Pair


Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:26 pm
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you played the hand passively but fortunatly you got full value for it, well done Smile

BUT in the long term you should always 4bet all-in on that spot pre as that minimum 3bet u r up against they usually have a meduim strength started hand.
xubuntu69
High Card


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Athens

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:13 pm
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You 've played it terrible after the flop. He could had easily a better hand. Just calling would be more appropriate rather than raising and going all in.

Quote:
BUT in the long term you should always 4bet all-in on that spot pre as that minimum 3bet u r up against they usually have a meduim strength started hand.


????? 4-bet with JJ ?

JJ is one of the most difficult starting hand. Some experts say that you should just call with it.
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Evilpingu
High Card


Joined: 10 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:52 pm
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4b shove pre.
sedds
One Pair


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:55 pm
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With your stack size i would always be 4betting AI preflop, unless something about that weird raise size really spooked me (but it would be hard to have enough information to think too much into it). On the flop i think he is going to cbet all the time, you have just called the minraise so your range is really wide and he should expect to take it down alot. Once he has there is too much money in the pot, so shoving to protect your equity is the best move.
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