Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 25 Location: Poncy rural worcestershire
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: Can you ever get away from this?
Approaching the bubble in a $33 tourney with nearly 1000 runners, can you ever get away from this? Have to put him on a missed diamond draw, surely? Should I have bet the turn? My oppo has only been at the table for a round or so, and has already re-raised all-in pre-flop twice.
Ended up missing the money by 20 places or so (not that there was proper money until the top 5, mind). Shame, because played well enough for a proper cash. Made a couple of correct hero calls earlier. _________________ I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 Posts: 7253 Location: willingham
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject:
through fear of stating the obvious YES you could easily have got away from this by
1: fold pre-flop
or if you couldnt get away from it then you could have quite possibly edged out the BB by
2: open shove preflop, once the intial raise has been made after your re-shove the BB should be able to fold his 66, ok you would have probably been beihind by the turn if the original raiser had called but you suck out to dbl up on the river.
just my 2 pence _________________ "There's not enough hippies to save our lives, We need more hippies"
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 25 Location: Poncy rural worcestershire
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject:
Ta for this. Did think about shoving pre but the pre-flop raiser was quite LAG. Can't justify shoving pre with 26 BBs approaching the bubble - though granted it prob would have got through this time, I can't believe its +EV on this table. The BB was an all-in merchant, remember.
Fold for 1500? Can't do that against this raiser either. Calling to around 10% of my stack to hit a set or bluff at a raggy checked flop/turn seems the best option? And then of course when it comes a Q should I have been as cautious as I was? Was worrying about overpairs check raising on flop. So when waiting until it's folded round and calling the shove when I DO hit the set, do I just have to tap the table and accept the BBs slowplay was better and unreadable?
The only other thing I can see to do is grow a pair and value-bet the turn. Assume I would have been check-raised by the BB and would have got away from it with smaller loss.
Interested in your thoughts, though. _________________ I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
Ta for this. Did think about shoving pre but the pre-flop raiser was quite LAG. Can't justify shoving pre with 26 BBs approaching the bubble - though granted it prob would have got through this time, I can't believe its +EV on this table. The BB was an all-in merchant, remember.
Fold for 1500? Can't do that against this raiser either. Calling to around 10% of my stack to hit a set or bluff at a raggy checked flop/turn seems the best option? And then of course when it comes a Q should I have been as cautious as I was? Was worrying about overpairs check raising on flop. So when waiting until it's folded round and calling the shove when I DO hit the set, do I just have to tap the table and accept the BBs slowplay was better and unreadable?
The only other thing I can see to do is grow a pair and value-bet the turn. Assume I would have been check-raised by the BB and would have got away from it with smaller loss.
Interested in your thoughts, though.
marginal call in cash game with stack sizes - clear fold for me in tourney - shove 2nd best option.
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 25 Location: Poncy rural worcestershire
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject:
Ok. Guess I need to reevaluate my range here. Just looked so much like a missed draw. Still hate his play here mind. Seems like he was just asking for the draws to get there. In his place I'm def betting the turn. _________________ I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
fwiw, i think your rvr call is fine, especially given the dynamic stated- I'd probably put him on a missed draw too, and I'm never shoving pre in that spot myself. (flipping at best if called)
The stacks aren't deep enough to set-mine imo, but the BB's play with 15 BBs is truly awful! (overbet=range polarised on rvr to slow-played sets/missed flush-draws- so given what you have said about him i reckon he's bluffing enough of the time to justify the call).
Having said that, I respect knifeboy's opinion and would be interested to hear why it's a"clear fold" in mtt? - you can almost never fold a set on flop (set over set=99/1ish), so why on rvr?
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 Posts: 1020 Location: Marske-by-the-Sea/Cambridge
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject:
sheriffatman wrote:
I respect knifeboy's opinion and would be interested to hear why it's a"clear fold" in mtt? - you can almost never fold a set on flop (set over set=99/1ish), so why on rvr?
I could be wrong, but you have to remember you are approaching the bubble. People's range tightens, so they are only going to see pots with strong holdings. 33 will be beaten more often than not, and with someone raising from early position, I'd feel like my 3s were already beaten.
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 25 Location: Poncy rural worcestershire
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject:
sheriffatman wrote:
fwiw, i think your rvr call is fine, especially given the dynamic stated- I'd probably put him on a missed draw too, and I'm never shoving pre in that spot myself. (flipping at best if called)
The stacks aren't deep enough to set-mine imo, but the BB's play with 15 BBs is truly awful! (overbet=range polarised on rvr to slow-played sets/missed flush-draws- so given what you have said about him i reckon he's bluffing enough of the time to justify the call).
Having said that, I respect knifeboy's opinion and would be interested to hear why it's a"clear fold" in mtt? - you can almost never fold a set on flop (set over set=99/1ish), so why on rvr?
Thanks for this. I was starting to wonder about my whole approach to bubble play. I've slept on it now and I'm confident that it's +EV in these circumstances. There are so many times that he has AQ, AT, QT, 2 diamonds and complete air that I'm calling every time. What am I calling to hit, for goodness sake? Can't hit a set and then fold it. Might was well fold every pp from the button if that's your thinking.
And ditto, respect to knifeboy, but folding a set is a big hero fold in almost every circumstance, certainly not when you've been checked to twice by a LAGgy player with a perfect size shoving stack. _________________ I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
fwiw, i think your rvr call is fine, especially given the dynamic stated- I'd probably put him on a missed draw too, and I'm never shoving pre in that spot myself. (flipping at best if called)
The stacks aren't deep enough to set-mine imo, but the BB's play with 15 BBs is truly awful! (overbet=range polarised on rvr to slow-played sets/missed flush-draws- so given what you have said about him i reckon he's bluffing enough of the time to justify the call).
Having said that, I respect knifeboy's opinion and would be interested to hear why it's a"clear fold" in mtt? - you can almost never fold a set on flop (set over set=99/1ish), so why on rvr?
Thanks for this. I was starting to wonder about my whole approach to bubble play. I've slept on it now and I'm confident that it's +EV in these circumstances. There are so many times that he has AQ, AT, QT, 2 diamonds and complete air that I'm calling every time. What am I calling to hit, for goodness sake? Can't hit a set and then fold it. Might was well fold every pp from the button if that's your thinking.
And ditto, respect to knifeboy, but folding a set is a big hero fold in almost every circumstance, certainly not when you've been checked to twice by a LAGgy player with a perfect size shoving stack.
I wasn't very clear in my original reply I fear - I meant that in my mind this is a clear fold pre-flop in a tourney and at best a marginal call pre-flop in a cash game. Once you had got into the hand I don't have much to add as played but the biggest error by far for me is being there in the first place.
I wasn't very clear in my original reply I fear - I meant that in my mind this is a clear fold pre-flop in a tourney and at best a marginal call pre-flop in a cash game. Once you had got into the hand I don't have much to add as played but the biggest error by far for me is being there in the first place.
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 Posts: 7253 Location: willingham
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject:
sheriffatman wrote:
knifeboy wrote:
I wasn't very clear in my original reply I fear - I meant that in my mind this is a clear fold pre-flop in a tourney and at best a marginal call pre-flop in a cash game. Once you had got into the hand I don't have much to add as played but the biggest error by far for me is being there in the first place.
+1
+2 _________________ "There's not enough hippies to save our lives, We need more hippies"
You played preflop terrible. once you hit the set on the river. you have no way to know his range is not tptk, two pair, + missed draws. though it would be a horrific bluff.
Preflop is a fold or shove. the bubble is only a consideration is you feel you have fold equity which is incredibly unlikely in a $30 mtt.
once you get to the flop and op not to make a probably +ev ship when its checked to you you have to call the river.
but as everyone and their mother has said its a pretty standard fold _________________ The next best thing to gambling and winning is gambling and losing.
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 25 Location: Poncy rural worcestershire
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject:
Fair enough. Thanks all. When I put it up I think that I was getting so involved with his range and decision making later on in the hand that I didn't really consider whether the original call pre was a good move. That's a leak fixed, I hope, which is the point of putting it on here in the first place. Thanks again for your input. _________________ I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
Actually, I think he played this hand well. I like the call on the button, with the intent of taking the pot away from the raiser with position. When the big blind calls, it puts a crink in the plan. I like the check, check, as im getting 2 chances to hit my card, and I do have some showdown value, altho minimal. When the 3 hits the river, I have to think im best here. BB, thinks everyones weak, and when a seemingly useless 3 hits, he shoves, totally expecting 2 folds. I have to make this call. Too many holdings he has that you beat, not to mention the aforementioned steal attempt. BB showed some daring, with 2 suited on the flop, but was rewarded for the gamble (this time anyway).
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