Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: opinions on the hand
top 9 places in league play off
starting stack 12k
20 minute clock
blinds started 50/100
prizes
1st. £500
2nd. £300
3rd. £200
(probably some deal for 4th)
Wont say which player i was at the mo, obviously very debated between the 2 then and after, would like honest opinions on both players play..maybe ill do a poll if i can work out how.
Who played it worse/better/mad stupid/genius etc?..player A (AK) or player B (52o)
just would like some thoughts _________________ never chop wood in a rubber dinghy
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 Posts: 1880 Location: Nottingham
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:03 am Post subject:
I'm not sure I understand the need for the question here, so I'm guessing there's something really clever that I'm just not getting.
As far as I can see, Player B (25o - with over 50bb at this stage!) has attempted some ham-fisted squeeze play in position - as the initial raise is quite strong (UTG and 4x), and the 3-bet doesn't seem large enough to really squeeze.
Player A checks to the (3-) better on the flop, which seems reasonable regardless of the board, and checks again on the turn, which is downright crafty (n1!) and reaps the rewards with the easy call of Player B's turn shove.
preflop: player A plays it standard and player B is making a squeeze, now for a few reasons this would be unadvisable in this spot 1, player A is UTG and unless has opened weak UTG previously is gonna have a big hand. 2, player A is the chip leader which i think the least person you want to be 3betting with a poor hand.
flop: player A, is obv checking to player B to make a cbet. Player B is just shutting down now? if your gonna make plays with weak holding you have to atleast cbet here imo and continue the bluff.
turn: It turns out to be the perfect check by player A, player B makes a delayed cbet shove which is never gonna work vs player A's range on that board imo.
As X said am i really missing something here + I dont get player Bs play at all, trying to take on the CL etc _________________ #whenwillitend
Nice check on the turn by player A, I thought he played the hand very well.
IMO, player B has to shut down once his 3bet is called and he totally misses the flop, regardless of the check from both players.
he did he checked behind, only on the turn to check check actions did he shove
When I said that the player B has to shut down on the flop, I meant that he is basically done with the hand and unless it is checked down to the river and he improves dramatically, he should just fold.
thanks for some imput guys...
some other questions that came up...
1.Is player A with AK now turning his hand into a bluff catcher considering player Bs 3 bet pre flop?
2. What hand does player A put player B on with a call?
3. Has player A put himself in a tough spot by not betting?
4. Easy call? or tough spot to bet out flop or turn? _________________ never chop wood in a rubber dinghy
why 3bet? player A is UTG, 4x raise and chipleader plus MP must also have a decent hand to flat an UTG raise! imo this is the worst time to make a squeeze.
Player A must be JJ+ AK/AQ
MP i would put on a low to middle pair 99/77/66/55/44
Im sort of contradicting myself that player B has to follow thru on his bluff because no matter what he bets hes likely to get called either way imo.
the shiver wrote:
thanks for some imput guys...
some other questions that came up...
1.Is player A with AK now turning his hand into a bluff catcher considering player Bs 3 bet pre flop?
2. What hand does player A put player B on with a call?
3. Has player A put himself in a tough spot by not betting?
4. Easy call? or tough spot to bet out flop or turn?
1, unless player B is turning AQ/QQ/JJ into a bluff then no because if player A hits his A or K i think hes still gonna get 1/2 streets of value from these hands. But not alot else!
2, when does player B make a call?
3, on what street flop or turn? If on the flop then no because its not a draw heavy board so if someone bets he can make an east call, but on the turn because the J comes a few more straight draws can get there on the river so that is a tougher spot then if he had led out KT/9T would not be in my percieved range. We have 1 of the kings though so less likely he would have a K.
4, This is dependant on reads because as i said earlier AQ/QQ/JJ could be in his 3bet range and they are all ahead of us so it is a tougher spot imo _________________ #whenwillitend
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 Posts: 1880 Location: Nottingham
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject:
EDIT: Started writing this before TMs post, so some repetition here, but some different perspective also!
1) Player B's 3-bet could mean a lot of things, and I don't think Player A has turned his hand into a bluff catcher - just because someone 3-bets doesn't mean they always have the nuts or nothing on every street! Player B could have a premium hand (Aces, Kings, Ace King - of these Player A is only behind to Aces and two of the Aces are already out); he could be playing a weaker Ace (i.e. AQ, AJ in which case Player A is now behind); he could have hit a set with queens or jacks; but there's a big chance that he could have 3-bet a smaller pair here (Tens down) because he didn't want to see a flop' or that he 3-bet light with the intention of moving in on the pot later. There's a definite middle ground to this range of hands - so it's not a nuts or nothing situation, as far as I can see. The only hand I don't believe he has is KT in this spot.
2) Do you mean the Player A's call of Player B's 3-bet? If so, see above ^ these are the sort of hands I'd be thinking about in this situation.
3) Player A has put himself into a great spot by not betting. By not betting, he combines some aspects of pot control (can check-down, check-call small bets), or he can induce a bluff or bet from a weaker hand. It's too easy to be results oriented here, but it certainly feels clever to me.
4) Not sure who you mean here - IMO it's a very easy call for Player A pre-flop (I'm only ever going to call or 4-bet with AK here to a 3-bet even with one player to act after me). As far as betting out on the flop or turn, I think Player A took the correct approach on the flop by checking to the better. On the turn, I [personally] think he got crafty although there are now several hands that he loses to (in particular wired queens and jacks) - the call of the shove is seems to bear this out, in my mind. Not certain if it's an easy call of the shove or not, but I'm sure I'd have tanked and called in this spot myself.
Which [if any] player were you Shiver? I'd be really interested to hear your perpsective on it whichever it is. _________________ PS: Ulysses1975
GP: THMFXX
Smashing input guys, its nice to hear unbiased outsiders views. For "fx" i was Mr 52off here. Theres obviously alot of history with me and Mr AK here and to a certain extent all 9 players have a decent grasp of the others game.
If you would like my take on the hand as it panned out ill happily give it and be picked apart on my thinking. Its what the forum is for.
To qualify for this final 9 play off every player has entered a £30 freezeout that runs every friday for the last 4 months and each week the final table were given points ranging from 10 for winning and 1 point for 9th. At the end of the 4 months the top 9 players in the league table made this freeroll league final.
The initial 3bet/squeeze was because i thought i could get a fold seeing as we was only barely into the 2nd level and still sitting fairly deep. Once the intial raiser flats me im done with the hand unless i flop a miracle. I wasnt worried at the player stuck in the middle as i knew him well enough to know he "thinks" hes getting some value flatting the 2nd raise after initial raiser calls.
As i said once im called in 2 spots mentally ive shut down on the hand especially once i see the flop. Hence my check behind.
When the turn comes the Jack and they both check AGAIN i ruled out any sets slow playing. I just thought i could get a fold from any ONE pair hand because of % of stack they had to put in, and also it was clear by their double barrel checks that they didnt want to bet and then get asked a question to an all in. I also thought that the impression of strength i had given pre flop and with the Jack coming on the turn i could represent a hand that had one pair beat. It nearly worked he did tank for what seemed like forever but made the call and ruined me. Im kinda stuck on this one after reading the feedback. Parts of me feel i ruined myself, then when i replay the hand i feel i sold a believable story. Its a thin line i guess between looking like a donkey when ur called and u table 52off drawing dead or getting the fold and pulling nearly 8k into ur stack of 10k with a fold....on this instance i left the table to mumble mumble murmur murmur _________________ never chop wood in a rubber dinghy
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 Posts: 1880 Location: Nottingham
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:26 am Post subject:
Shiver - that all makes a lot of sense - the meta-game does come into its own when you play live, regularly, with the same people.
The 52o is a good hand to squeeze with in this spot, as you can let it go easily if you get any takers. Personally, I'd prefer a stronger bet, but it probably would telegraph the squeeze, so maybe you were right.
I guess the line you took represented a set of jacks on the turn - it would be consistent with your 3-bet pre, and then the check on the flop. Unlucky, as it turned out, but that's poker!
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