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HalfSugar
High Card


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:03 pm
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I came here to post this hand after remembering someone saying that HM would probably come up with an answer but found this thread instead.

First of all, I was at the table for this one and sat with Ollie all day until I eliminated him (again, sorry Mr. Green ) and although I have no experience of him other than this tournament, I can say that throughout the whole day, I didn't see him do anything that could be construed as an angle shoot.

Anyway, with his good name now fully restored, on to the hand............... Ignoring my opinion because it is completely irrelevant, I think the entire decision rides on this single sentence and whether it is in the Grosvenor Casino rule book:

dik9 wrote:
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled.


If this is true, the only resolution is the one that was ruled upon on the day. If it's not true, the hand is dead and chips are returned. I suspect it is in the book and the ruling was good, however unpalatable it felt at the time.

It will be interesting to see what Kremser, Effel et al make of it all. I suspect everything will match the ruling made but the justifications will be worth reading.
Alex B
Straight Flush


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2856
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:05 am
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HalfSugar wrote:

If this is true, the only resolution is the one that was ruled upon on the day. If it's not true, the hand is dead and chips are returned. I suspect it is in the book and the ruling was good, however unpalatable it felt at the time.


It has been mentioned earlier; even if this particular rule isn't in the book, the one about the TD having to consider fairness and the games' best interest as over-riding literal interpretation will certainly be in there, ensuring that it was a good ruling anyway.
The Mob
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Posts: 4498

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 am
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We put this exact scenario to our (YATTD) Tournament Director panel of six experts and their views will be published week beginning 6th June.

This is the panel:
http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director4

Their views make interesting reading!
HalfSugar
High Card


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:56 am
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This is one I am looking forward to seeing.
booom
One Pair


Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:56 pm
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Very interesting post to be honest

I can see this from both sides and still im not sure what's correct ruling

I don't know Oliver never met him but i think he's right TBH

The hands influenced the decision

just out of interest and throwing another angle in.......



does anyone know was Mr AA a regular at the club Wink
The Mob
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Posts: 4498

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:00 pm
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The new YATTD feature on this will be published tomorrow Wednesday, 8th June.
MM
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1740
Location: Hendon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:56 pm
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stowjon
Royal Flush


Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 9071

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:59 pm
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and these replys are why i rate kremser as the best TD in the world
great start to a new series of yattd
pembo
Full House


Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 1020
Location: Marske-by-the-Sea/Cambridge

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:21 pm
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Part 3:
Quote:
Matt Savage:
Only in one case if they were identical meaning AA's vs. AA's or 22's vs. 22's in which case I think it makes perfect sense to split the pot.


But what about the chance there could be a flush?
Grumbledook
Royal Flush


Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 16061

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:30 pm
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read the article, that was covered in the mob verdict Razz
Alex B
Straight Flush


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2856
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:11 pm
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So a player should remember their suits if they were ahead, but forget them if they were behind?

Id like the mob summary if they change (2) to drawing the suits randomly if they aren't known. Its easy to run and completely fair, its not even clear that it would add variance, but even if it did, this is a gambling game. For the same reason, its needless to worry about winning with flushes.

I think Krempser massively exaggerates the problem with discards - it just doesn't matter that a rare non-"destined" result can happen when the discards where unknown when the players acted.
Ricky9
One Pair


Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 34
Location: Midlands

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:13 am
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ricky9 wrote:
FWIW, I have had the same situation as part 2, After my decision I kept going over and over in my head as something didn't sit right and then found the flaw in my decision. I will let your panel have their say before posting what I did. ( as it may take away from this thread being controversial lol) However at the time and in the situation I was given I believe it was the fairest thing to do. lol


I ruled the same as Matt Savage and took flushes out of the equation! The flaw in this was if one player knows his cards and made a marginal call with flush possibilities I.e. Kc Qc then ruling out a flush would be too drastic and unfair. Luckily for me both players could not remember their card suits.
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