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Matt101
Straight Flush


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3285

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:40 pm
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L67C wrote:
oneshotbob wrote:
L67C wrote:
Secondly, the personal insults are just not fair game guys.


I agree. So was "batty boys" an affectionate term?

Obviously not, but it wasn't as bad as a guy who had never posted on the forum being called an angle-shooter by more than one person with incomplete information.

@ Joe - could you post what you're going to send to the TD's before you send it please? While I've no doubt that these guys will use only the facts to make their decision, I think it's important to make sure that everything irrelevent is removed from the question.

For example, whether it's the right decision or not, I don't find it surprising that more people in the 2+2 thread are advocating a chop than on here. Neither player's cards have been revealed at any point in the 2+2 thread, so no-one is trying to be ''fair'' to the AA.


The actual hands shouldn't come into it, but it's a good example to use for the advocates of a split pot of why it's not a fair solution, and that the deck should be reshuffled and the board re-dealt even if the 2 players have 55 v 98s and both are happy with the chop.
stowjon
Royal Flush


Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 9071

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:41 pm
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i was gonna post but tbh i cant be arsed as this thiread is getting so silly.
darrensprengers
Misclick


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 7551

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:44 pm
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i could not care less about A10 or AA. the only reason i thought it was an angle shoot is when i spoke to jon on the day he said that ollie complained even after the final TD decision.

If ollie can point to similar examples of both hands being all in and exposed where the dealers mucks them and they get a split then i guess he has a point. there has to be a precedent for him to be so vehemently arguing against the TDs. "i dont think its fair" does not seem enough.

Playing devils advocate you could argue he mucked one hand before the other so the second mucked hand should win etc.

and to be honest i think most people were saying it seemed like an angle shoot not that ollie was necessarily an angle shooter. this is a pretty specific situation and i dont think you can go from the particular to the general in this case.
evelyn
Quads


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2123

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:07 pm
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The fairest thing to do is to split the pot according to the pre-flop equity. They did the second fairest thing. BTW what's wrong with being an angle shooter ? It's not cheating is it ?
L67C
High Card


Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:17 pm
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darrensprengers wrote:
i could not care less about A10 or AA. the only reason i thought it was an angle shoot is when i spoke to jon on the day he said that ollie complained even after the final TD decision.

That makes no sense. The last thing he'd do if he was angling would be to continue to draw attention to himself and the situation even after it could no longer be resolved in ''his favour''.

darrensprengers wrote:
If ollie can point to similar examples of both hands being all in and exposed where the dealers mucks them and they get a split then i guess he has a point. there has to be a precedent for him to be so vehemently arguing against the TDs. "i dont think its fair" does not seem enough.

I'd have been asking for a chop regardless of the hands in play. Whether that's inexperience on my part or not I don't know, because I see your point about needing an example to challenge a position of power, but there's been enough inaccurate stuff posted here from more experienced players that I'm happy to just ignore everyone and wait on Mr Kremser et al.

darrensprengers wrote:
Playing devils advocate you could argue he mucked one hand before the other so the second mucked hand should win etc.


Yeah that's what I mean. There are some much easier angles to shoot than the one Ollie is being accused of. He could do what you say quite easily. I remember a hand from WSOP ME coverage a while back where someone was mucked out of the tournament by a dealer after being all-in and called. What if the dealer had realised this and deliberately mucked the other player's hand 10 seconds later to avoid being the ''villain''? He could then get the board re-run and at least give the first mucked hand a chance of staying in the the tournament. How much time has to pass between hands being mucked before it's argued that the hands weren't mucked simultaneously?

Let's not forget that in all of this, Ollie had no issues with calling out his own cards in order to allow the re-run to take place. If he was truly shooting an angle, he'd have just said he couldn't remember the suit of one of the cards and they'd have been forced to chop up the pot.

darrensprengers wrote:
and to be honest i think most people were saying it seemed like an angle shoot not that ollie was necessarily an angle shooter. this is a pretty specific situation and i dont think you can go from the particular to the general in this case.

Angle shooters gonna angle shoot? There is no particular and general when it comes to this IMO. As soon as you angle once, you're an angler.

There was a thread similar to this on Blonde last year where another friend of mine was accused of trying to look at opponents cards as they were being dealt by resting his head on the table. The accusations flew around wildly and then the thread died for two weeks before someone noticed it. Had it not been bumped, that could have been another genuine guy unfairly tagged as an angle shooter.

I'm going to leave the thread now and wait on the TD's posts. I think I've covered everything I wanted to say.
darrensprengers
Misclick


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 7551

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:34 pm
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Because by angle shoot i meant that he was simply arguing what was best for him and not what was in the general interest of fairness or understood Vic card room rules. Angle shoot was probably not the right term as what he did is probably a pretty natural thing to do in a situation that is fairly rare and/or unique.
HopeItsChips
Flush


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 532

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:41 pm
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evelyn wrote:
The fairest thing to do is to split the pot according to the pre-flop equity.


This is a ridiculous idea. Apart from the fact that it would stall the game on one table whilst someone calculated the equity, you would probably still not be able to pay out the correct amounts due to the limited number of chip denominations on the table. If someone has equity of 1250 in a pot and the 50s have been removed from play what are you going to pay him? An amount which favours player A or player B?
Joe The Elegance Beevers
Mobster


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:30 pm
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L67C -
It can look like an angle is being shot when the perpetrator doesn't even realise that and is innocent. What I am saying is, and it certainly looks like, that Ollie did not do anything wrong intentionally or in his mind.

You have to try to accept though that if a player with A10 who is in an allin situation versus AA tries to get a hand voided it looks like a move. Especially when, in my honest opinion, that just can't happen as both hands had been tabled face up and there was no dispute as to what they were.

It's not just the dishonest dealer the player has to be protected from, it's the honest mistake too.

You have to rule the same way every time and it can't be a misdeal every time because that could be unfair and open to abuse. If the hand can be played out it has to be, it's what Barny likes to call 'natural justice'. The player is not protected otherwise.

Anyway I have put together all the evidence and fact that I can and written this. If anyone has any comments they would like to make before I send it to our TD panel please post or PM me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dealer Mucks Both Hands When Allin and Called

An unusual matter to rule on occurred at the London Live tournament at the Victoria Casino in London in April 2011.

All action is folded to the small blind who raises putting chips into the pot, the big blind reraises putting in more chips, then the following verbal actions happened:

Small blind: "all in"
Big blind: "is that an all in"
Small blind: "yes, all in"
Big blind: "call"

So the small blind turns over his cards - the big blind turns over his cards. Both hands were face up on the table, behind the line and exactly as you would expect at a showdown. Everyone could see them, although the dealer wasn't paying attention.

The dealer leans fowards, turns over the two hands and sweeps up all the other cards on the table, pushes the pot towards the BB (the chips were still seperate from his pile) and starts mixing all cards face down. He did not get to square the deck or riffle, he had just started table shuffling and at this point that's when the BB said (and others quickly followed) with something along the lines of 'what are you doing?'

Both the SB and the BB could remember their exact holdings and there was no disputing this.

The dealer says he doesn't know what happened.

Part 1) How would you rule?

Part 2) If the players could remember the ranks but not the exact suits
how would you rule then?

Part 3) Would the players' holdings ever make any difference to your ruling.
L67C
High Card


Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:45 pm
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Hi Joe,

Thanks for that, great post. I can see now what you meant in your first reply, it was just easy to mis-interpret. You've handled the rest of the thread very well, kudos for that. The e-mail looks fine to me. Looking forward to seeing the responses.

Cheers!
dik9
Straight


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 495

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:31 pm
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Joe The Elegance Beevers wrote:


The dealer leans fowards, turns over the two hands and sweeps up all the other cards on the table, pushes the pot towards the BB


Sorry Joe, just a quickie, where does it say the pot was pushed to the BB? May have missed it as viewing on phone.
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Jon MW
The British Cowboy


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 1865
Location: Hastings

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:39 pm
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dik9 wrote:
Joe The Elegance Beevers wrote:


The dealer leans fowards, turns over the two hands and sweeps up all the other cards on the table, pushes the pot towards the BB


Sorry Joe, just a quickie, where does it say the pot was pushed to the BB? May have missed it as viewing on phone.


He mentioned via PM what his summary was going to be, Joe's reiteration of the events which have been posted reminded me of some extra detail - this was the point every body at the table apart from the dealer thought - what's going on?
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dik9
Straight


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 495

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:40 pm
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FWIW, I have had the same situation as part 2, After my decision I kept going over and over in my head as something didn't sit right and then found the flaw in my decision. I will let your panel have their say before posting what I did. ( as it may take away from this thread being controversial lol) However at the time and in the situation I was given I believe it was the fairest thing to do. lol
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oneshotbob
Full House


Joined: 06 Aug 2010
Posts: 1305
Location: York, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:44 pm
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As a silver lining, I think the dealer has discovered Full Tilt's latest product: Super-Duper Turbo Rush, in which there is only one round of betting and there are no community cards.
GhostPirate
One Pair


Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:09 pm
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angle-shooting is fine, if ppl are dumb enough to fall for it sod em
DropTheHammer
Straight Flush


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 3019
Location: @Phill_555

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:28 pm
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GhostPirate wrote:
angle-shooting is fine, if ppl are dumb enough to fall for it sod em


Naughty

EDIT - pls post your RL name so I can do it to you and then we'll see how fine it is...
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