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oneshotbob
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:40 am
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X wrote:

I was a bit surprised by your [homophobic] insult... it doesn't really cast you in a very favourable light.


Agreed. But the use of an apostrophe to make up for the missing letters in "professionals" was quite good, though.
fadrus
One Pair


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:20 am
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Quote:
I don't think there was a dispute as to whether or not the two players had the right cards here.


Yes Joe, of course in this case there was no dispute over the actual cards and in terms of the overall result I accept the right thing happened.

I suppose I was referring to only one element of your argument ie you shouldn't split the pot because it might encourage the dealer to cheat. My point was that you could equally say you shouldn't restore the hands because it might encourage players to cheat. I mean you can even imagine someone being convinced by more assertive types that their hand wasn't what they remembered it to be and agreeing to play on with a hand that wasn't theirs. Whatever rule you have here can be taken advantage of by someone in some fanciful manner. Going one way rather than the other on the ground that someone might cheat doesn't seem to me to get us anywhere simply because that someone could be anyone. If there are reasons to retrieve the cards and play the hands out they should be different reasons from possible Dealer bias.

I kind of share the feeling of the player involved in the hand though that in this case the general rule has been fudged a little to allow the right thing to happen. In this case it arguably worked out ok but there will be other cases where these little fudges and manipulations lead to the wrong thing happening. So for the sake of consistency, clarity and simplicity I'm in favour of the 'mucked hands are dead' standpoint.
X
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:32 am
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GhostPirate wrote:
Matt101 wrote:
SB was either angle shooting or he doesn't have a grasp of the maths. One or the other.


Pretty sure that the point being made is that say no body folded a club and nobody folded a Ten, K, Q, J.

Then the odds of picking up a lucky escape are obv better from 34 cards than 48.

Lets face it you get allin pre and your dominated but you have a suited ace, would you rather 9 outs from 34 or 9 from 48. Little bit more than 0.5%


You present the situation like the AT can hit one out and make a hand!! ...but it's not 9 outs from 34 / 48 to make a hand though, is it?

It's 9 outs from 34 / 48; followed by 8 outs from 33 / 47; then 7 outs from 33 / 46 - needing three cards out of five to hit, to make a flush. You've got a similar situation with making a straight. Calculate the total chance of each and consider the difference.

GhostPirate wrote:
back to maths school for you.


Rolling Eyes
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darrensprengers
Misclick


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:38 am
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Whats with all the insults?

Why dont we just put it to the real TDs and see what they come back with. I am not sure what relevance poker players opinions are in this matter. The guy with the A10 is going to defend the split and the guy with the AA will feel very hard done by due to dealer error.

Let mat savage or kremser supply the "right" answer. The vic has some strange rules anyway.
RobSamples
Quads


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:55 am
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Jon MW
The British Cowboy


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:06 am
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fadrus wrote:
...

I kind of share the feeling of the player involved in the hand though that in this case the general rule has been fudged a little to allow the right thing to happen. In this case it arguably worked out ok but there will be other cases where these little fudges and manipulations lead to the wrong thing happening. So for the sake of consistency, clarity and simplicity I'm in favour of the 'mucked hands are dead' standpoint.


The rule seems pretty clear -
The TD makes a decision based on the independent information provided by the dealer
On the rare occasions this isn't possible then he makes the decision based on the information from the players as long as they agree

So 'fudging' the rules doesn't seem to apply, but if it did it's covered by the rule,
Roberts Rules of Poker wrote:

Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.


Most card rooms have a clause in their rules which is similar to this
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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Pizzicato
Straight Flush


Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:14 am
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I would be very interested to know as well what people would rule if there was any disagreement as to the hands tabled. For instance if the other players hadn't been paying attention or their view of the cards had been obstructed by either chip stacks or the pot/s...

I think under the unfortunate circumstances as shown in the OP the ruling was the fairest available and even if a different ruling ends up being technically correct I am also a firm believer in common sense rulings to preserve the spirit of the tournament which is what happened here.

In the case of there being disagreements over the hands originally tabled the situation gets alot more complicated. I think in that set of circumstances that without any corroborating evidence as to the identity of the cards involved of both parties I would have to declare the hand a misdeal, refund all players any chips put into the pot and redeal the entire hand.
fadrus
One Pair


Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:57 am
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Ok, I take your point Jon.

My thinking was that the TD's enquiry should go no further once he's told by the dealer that the cards were mucked. That would be the information the TD makes his decision on and not what players remember.

I didn't know about the Robert's rule you quote and I agree that it pretty much trumps other arguments.
Matt101
Straight Flush


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:37 pm
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GhostPirate wrote:
Matt101 wrote:
SB was either angle shooting or he doesn't have a grasp of the maths. One or the other.


Pretty sure that the point being made is that say no body folded a club and nobody folded a Ten, K, Q, J.

Then the odds of picking up a lucky escape are obv better from 34 cards than 48.

Lets face it you get allin pre and your dominated but you have a suited ace, would you rather 9 outs from 34 or 9 from 48. Little bit more than 0.5% back to maths school for you.


You're assuming the absolute worst case scenario for the AT. The opposite could be the case. On average I'd be amazed if the difference was more than 0.5% one way or the other.
Jon MW
The British Cowboy


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:40 pm
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Matt101 wrote:
GhostPirate wrote:
Matt101 wrote:
SB was either angle shooting or he doesn't have a grasp of the maths. One or the other.


Pretty sure that the point being made is that say no body folded a club and nobody folded a Ten, K, Q, J.

Then the odds of picking up a lucky escape are obv better from 34 cards than 48.

Lets face it you get allin pre and your dominated but you have a suited ace, would you rather 9 outs from 34 or 9 from 48. Little bit more than 0.5% back to maths school for you.


You're assuming the absolute worst case scenario for the AT. The opposite could be the case. On average I'd be amazed if the difference was more than 0.5% one way or the other.


There's no difference, I might put an example up illustrating why later - but tbh the maths of it is all a bit tedious
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GhostPirate
One Pair


Joined: 31 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:09 pm
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Matt101 wrote:
GhostPirate wrote:
Matt101 wrote:
SB was either angle shooting or he doesn't have a grasp of the maths. One or the other.


Pretty sure that the point being made is that say no body folded a club and nobody folded a Ten, K, Q, J.

Then the odds of picking up a lucky escape are obv better from 34 cards than 48.

Lets face it you get allin pre and your dominated but you have a suited ace, would you rather 9 outs from 34 or 9 from 48. Little bit more than 0.5% back to maths school for you.


You're assuming the absolute worst case scenario for the AT. The opposite could be the case. On average I'd be amazed if the difference was more than 0.5% one way or the other.


The point is no-one knows and this is the point that Olly was making re the randomness of the deck it could have been the best possible situation for him or the worst. No-one knows hence the chop hand dead argument, which I do think has a lot of merit. I understand the pull hands out and deal out a board argument too.

Think perhaps allowing both players to cerominally sign the dealers P45 would have been a good solution.
wowsickriver
High Card


Joined: 04 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:09 pm
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For anyone curious, I posted the scenario also up on 2+2, where they too have a split concensus:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/...take-mtt-1013231/
X
Quads


Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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Location: Earth X

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:13 pm
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GhostPirate wrote:
Think perhaps allowing both players to cerominally sign the dealers P45 would have been a good solution.


This ^ is definitely the best suggestion.

But I don't want that, to eclipse this:

GhostPirate wrote:
and to Olly dont worry about what forum batty boy think


You big wet pancake.
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L67C
High Card


Joined: 04 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:28 pm
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oneshotbob wrote:
L67C wrote:
Secondly, the personal insults are just not fair game guys.


I agree. So was "batty boys" an affectionate term?

Obviously not, but it wasn't as bad as a guy who had never posted on the forum being called an angle-shooter by more than one person with incomplete information.

@ Joe - could you post what you're going to send to the TD's before you send it please? While I've no doubt that these guys will use only the facts to make their decision, I think it's important to make sure that everything irrelevent is removed from the question.

For example, whether it's the right decision or not, I don't find it surprising that more people in the 2+2 thread are advocating a chop than on here. Neither player's cards have been revealed at any point in the 2+2 thread, so no-one is trying to be ''fair'' to the AA.
Jon MW
The British Cowboy


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:32 pm
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L67C wrote:
oneshotbob wrote:
L67C wrote:
Secondly, the personal insults are just not fair game guys.


I agree. So was "batty boys" an affectionate term?

Obviously not, but it wasn't as bad as a guy who had never posted on the forum being called an angle-shooter by more than one person with incomplete information.

@ Joe - could you post what you're going to send to the TD's before you send it please? While I've no doubt that these guys will use only the facts to make their decision, I think it's important to make sure that everything irrelevent is removed from the question.

For example, whether it's the right decision or not, I don't find it surprising that more people in the 2+2 thread are advocating a chop than on here. Neither player's cards have been revealed at any point in the 2+2 thread, so no-one is trying to be ''fair'' to the AA.


I didn't post the hands in my OP either, the first replies are without that knowledge
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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