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OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:42 pm
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OK this is mostly because I want to try out the new hand history replayer!

So... I'm playing on Party. I don't have any info on the players other than from this session. Villain is 16/8 over ~300 hands, which is a looser PF style than me but still decent. I'm running at about the same for the session despite usually being about 12/8. I also made a pretty bad stack-off on the turn in the last few orbits with a turned top pair, and played another decent size pot which I won without a showdown, so I've been giving a bit of action (neither vs this guy).

I figure his 3-betting range is quite tight considering we're ~145BB effective, he's OOP, has decent stats and he hasn't been getting out of line. Like QQ+, AK. Although 3-betting AK seems really bad in this spot.

Anyway... flop is kinda useless for him, and he should be c-betting his entire range here except for maybe AK (he can't have AhKh since I have the Kh). A bet will probably just fold out AKo, we'll get called or check-raised by better (despite it being a donkey line) and we may even get check-raised with QQ which would really suck. So I just check the turn to avoid being check-raised and to tempt him to fire the turn with QQ or try to bluff with AK.

Obviously I bet the turn because he has shown no post-flop strength and I don't want to give a free card.

This is more of a "What do you think to this line?" post than a "What do I do next?" post. For example do you like a 4-bet PF etc?
fraac
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:47 pm
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Why do you check the flop? Couldn't you get one more bet out of him there?
OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:58 pm
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fraac wrote:
Why do you check the flop? Couldn't you get one more bet out of him there?


Because he should be c-betting his entire 3-betting range except for maybe AK. So either I fold out AK, or he calls or check-raises with better or worse (even number of hands each way if we're assuming QQ+ range). But by giving him a chance to check-raise I'm either paying off all his AA holdings by calling (and he might skew this towards AA) or I'm adding value to all his QQ holdings by folding. Betting also gives him the chance to fold weaker hands which he might bet on the turn thinking he is ahead, or try to bluff with.

The hearts aren't scary for us and are probably not scary for him either since he didn't bet. So I want him to weight AK higher in my range or for him to widen my range more so that he gives more action on the turn.
mp3
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:08 pm
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I would definitely 4bet preflop and depending on his flop action get it all in if possible and hope you are up against AK. I agree about his preflop range being tight if he is 3betting you out of position but unless he has TT or JJ I'd be very confident of being ahead on this flop.
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Matt101
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:12 pm
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Is folding out his 7 outer such a bad thing? Also, is check-raising with QQ quite a common line at this level on a flop like that? (not been playing much lately and it's normally tournies when I do).

Pretty sure I'd be bet-folding the flop and if he C/Rs with QQ good luck to him. Also pretty sure I'd be 4betting PF.
fraac
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:14 pm
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If he can only not cbet AK, doesn't he have to cbet AK? And thus the converse. Therefore don't you have to bet the flop for value against 99/QQ?


^ This is why I don't play cash. You have to think.
OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:24 pm
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Matt101 wrote:
Also, is check-raising with QQ quite a common line at this level on a flop like that? (not been playing much lately and it's normally tournies when I do).


Not really, I think it's a terrible line.

Matt101 wrote:
Pretty sure I'd be bet-folding the flop and if he C/Rs with QQ good luck to him. Also pretty sure I'd be 4betting PF.


Bet-folding seems really bad when I can let him bluff hands on the turn that wouldn't call a flop value bet. I don't think he auto-stacks with QQ here.

Similarly 4-betting PF at this level is still pretty much always AA, and I don't expect him to call or 5-bet with anything worse than AA. I wouldn't 4-bet AA here either, for the same reason (maybe in this spot though, with deeper stacks).
fraac
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:27 pm
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Aren't suited connectors a lot of his 3bet pf range this deep? And you still check the flop?
OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:29 pm
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fraac wrote:
Aren't suited connectors a lot of his 3bet pf range this deep?


Out of position?
fraac
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:30 pm
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Yes?
Matt101
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:34 pm
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OwenP wrote:
Matt101 wrote:
Also, is check-raising with QQ quite a common line at this level on a flop like that? (not been playing much lately and it's normally tournies when I do).


Not really, I think it's a terrible line.


Well then why the concern over the C/R with QQ? Surely if you can pretty much rule this out it furthers the case for bet-folding the flop as you're almost certainly behind to a C/R?
OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:46 pm
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Matt101 wrote:

Well then why the concern over the C/R with QQ? Surely if you can pretty much rule this out it furthers the case for bet-folding the flop as you're almost certainly behind to a C/R?


Because although I don't rate the line, if he check-raises at all then I wouldn't rule QQ out of his range. I just think there is more value in checking the flop and keeping both our ranges that little bit more wider.

Edit: what I'm saying is that although check-raising QQ probably isn't a common line, neither is check-raising anything else so it doesn't rule out QQ. We just end up giving ourselves a tougher decision for possibly less value.
Checkov
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:57 pm
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145bb isn't deep.
Nem
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:01 pm
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Clear 4 bet preflop if he has Aces then w/e. Other then that the hand is standard.
OwenP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:13 pm
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Nem wrote:
Clear 4 bet preflop if he has Aces then w/e. Other then that the hand is standard.


If I expect him to 5-bet or call with AA, and fold all other hands, what does a 4-bet achieve? We either win what's in the pot or lose a stack.
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