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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:00 pm
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OwenP wrote:
Isn't Jac's calling range more important? Because this obviously affects what Koresh can shove here.

darrensprengers wrote:
So with jac arama committing 3.5k of his will be short stack koreshs feels he can gamble that he has the image to make arama fold all small pairs up to what he would shove with and KJ, KQ, QJ etc and assuming he will not put him on this "steal".


Why would Jac shove the top end of his range when Viki goes all-in for ~3BBs? If he does that then Koresh or Joe can never make a move on him so he loses value.

darrensprengers wrote:

ATC for a women will usually be ace something.


LOL


thats the point i was making. I am saying as koresh would have to thinking to not have a good hand. Hence he should have a good hand here and he does not expect arama to fold.

I know u like to try and be pointless but vikki has pushed all in and not utg so i would think there is a high percentage change she has AX as opposed to kx<10 or pair. Therefore if arama is making a weak call then he would need to beat this Ace heavy range. Possibly a middling Ace or KQ.

I am assuming she has blinded down to this but is it likely with one free hand left to come she has decided to go with ATC? not really is it We have no information except how many chips she has. Please try and think a bit.
Phil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:17 pm
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ReggieK wrote:
This is when I first saw Joe on telly, he bounded out of his seat if I recall.
Personally for me its 50/50 so I use my lucky 2 coin in that situation. Heads=fold, Tails=call.


Me too. He jumped out of his seat and said "I want to know how much that is please"

I wish someone would repeat the original LNP again. Discovery Home & Leisure (I think) used to repeat it all the time, but haven't for a few years now.
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Last edited by Phil on Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
OwenP
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:18 pm
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darrensprengers wrote:

thats the point i was making. I am saying as koresh would have to thinking to not have a good hand. Hence he should have a good hand here and he does not expect arama to fold.

I know u like to try and be pointless but vikki has pushed all in and not utg so i would think there is a high percentage change she has AX as opposed to kx<10 or pair. Therefore if arama is making a weak call then he would need to beat this Ace heavy range. Possibly a middling Ace or KQ.

I am assuming she has blinded down to this but is it likely with one free hand left to come she has decided to go with ATC? not really is it We have no information except how many chips she has. Please try and think a bit.


Not sure why you are being all arsey there mate... I simply raised a point about Jac's calling range and questioned the statement you made about Jac shoving the top end of his range. If that isn't what you meant then maybe you should clarify, rather than tell me to "think a bit" about your illiteracy.
ReggieK
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:34 pm
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Phil wrote:
ReggieK wrote:
This is when I first saw Joe on telly, he bounded out of his seat if I recall.
Personally for me its 50/50 so I use my lucky 2 coin in that situation. Heads=fold, Tails=call.


Me too. He jumped out of his seat and said "I want to know how much that is please"

I wish someone would repeat the original LNP again. Discovery Home & Leisure (I think) used to repeat it all the time, but haven't for a few years now.


Too right, its about time for a repeat I reckon.
Vicky with her fags, Barneys migraine shirt, That miserable looking git, and the Swedish fella
Joe The Elegance Beevers
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:02 pm
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I actually watched this hand again today on VHS (remember that?) in the Mob HQ in Hendon and as they pushed Koresh the pot I lit a Marlboro Light! In a TV studio!

It's good to see that some of you are already enjoying this new forum and learning tool and the rest of the Mob and I look forward to commenting on some of the hands that you may post in here.

In this particular hand though a couple of things happened that can't be properly shown in any hand history or replayer and perhaps tomorrow I'll post my entire thought process on this particular hand .
Alex W
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:59 pm
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Most of this is based off having no reads on the players.

The push from Vikki is likely all pairs, Ax, Kx prob any blackjack hands.

The Jacarama call is a strange one. He is putting in a fair chunk of his stack and is also giving Joe B a good price in the BB to call the raise. I assume his range might be somewhat polarised here between weakish hands he is call/folding with and v strong hands that he doesn't mind who comes in with him.

Once Koresh pushes if you make the assumption that Jacaram won't overcall if we call it's a simple equity/icm question.

Even against a very tight range we have obv have good equity

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.371% 50.99% 01.38% 35799808 966965.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 47.629% 46.25% 01.38% 32470726 966965.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

If we win this hand we have a huge chipstack 3 handed and with these payouts we are playing to win. I think it's a fairly easy call.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:18 pm
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I have seen this loads of times as I had all of these on VHS. First saw Joe in series 1 when he went heads up in his heat versus Surinder and the deck smacked Surinder pretty hard in the face as I recall. I eventually threw the tapes away last year I think.

I remember this episode with the Queens, I recall Joe saying in his best stern poker voice "I WANT THAT COUNTING OUT" Smile

Vicki could be shoving any pocket pair, Ax, many kings or other broadway.... Jac's call seems weak and Koresh looks to be making a shut out move......you cannot fold this hand plain and simple. Turn this around and if you folded those queens then the minute they hit the muck, you would be thinking that you had made the wrong play.
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Simon Galloway
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:21 am
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I'm going to get in a few thoughts before Joe puts up his thought process, which I am looking forward to reading.

First up, I am sure the players would readily admit that back then, poker theory wasn't anywhere near as advanced as it is today. players didn't fully understand hand strengths (either under or over-valuing certain hands) and the dynamics of a fast paced short handed game. We can't stand in judgement over something that has taken us 6 years and ICM software to arrive at, which they didn't have.

I haven't seen the hand since it was first aired, but I do remember (I think!) two critical bits of info.

First, I seem to remember Jac calling Koresh's shove out of turn, which was something extra for Joe to think about. As it turned out, Jac got away with getting his chips back out of the pot, something which I thought was wrong at the time, and still do now. The only thing Joe could have asked for was a chip count (which he did) and a clarification on whethere jac's call would be held as binding (which he didn't) but this is extra info to process.

Then, Koresh starts singing like a canary, which I took as a sign that he was shitting himself when he realised that Joe might actually have a hand. If Joe read it the same way, he could maybe discount AA and KK from his range and figure that QQ just has to be a call with this extra info against the remiander of his range. In which case he was very unlucky to find Koresh with about the only hand he didn't want to see, and even more unlucky when he binked the King.

Finally, this was way back in the day when 50k lumps weren't daily occurences, it isn't surprisng that it wasn't a snap decision. Joe did take his time, but unsurprisingly perhaps arrived at the right play, it just didn't work out.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:00 am
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Simon Galloway wrote:
I'm going to get in a few thoughts before Joe puts up his thought process, which I am looking forward to reading.

First up, I am sure the players would readily admit that back then, poker theory wasn't anywhere near as advanced as it is today. players didn't fully understand hand strengths (either under or over-valuing certain hands) and the dynamics of a fast paced short handed game. We can't stand in judgement over something that has taken us 6 years and ICM software to arrive at, which they didn't have.

I haven't seen the hand since it was first aired, but I do remember (I think!) two critical bits of info.

First, I seem to remember Jac calling Koresh's shove out of turn, which was something extra for Joe to think about. As it turned out, Jac got away with getting his chips back out of the pot, something which I thought was wrong at the time, and still do now. The only thing Joe could have asked for was a chip count (which he did) and a clarification on whethere jac's call would be held as binding (which he didn't) but this is extra info to process.

Then, Koresh starts singing like a canary, which I took as a sign that he was shitting himself when he realised that Joe might actually have a hand. If Joe read it the same way, he could maybe discount AA and KK from his range and figure that QQ just has to be a call with this extra info against the remiander of his range. In which case he was very unlucky to find Koresh with about the only hand he didn't want to see, and even more unlucky when he binked the King.

Finally, this was way back in the day when 50k lumps weren't daily occurences, it isn't surprisng that it wasn't a snap decision. Joe did take his time, but unsurprisingly perhaps arrived at the right play, it just didn't work out.




I couldnt remember Jac calling out of turn.....was it a snap call?

If it was then it makes the queens more problematical. I was under the impression that Vicky went all-in with a short stack, Jac called the 3k+ and then Koresh shoved. In the heat of battle, hard to be certain now what I would have done although folding now becomes more of an option.
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Joe The Elegance Beevers
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:00 pm
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Its difficult to get the hand 100% right as the way that Late Night Poker was edited back then meant it was difficult to get exact chip counts etc but I seem to remember that Jac had less chips than this, he was 2nd lowest on the table by quite a bit, and that Padraig had a bit less as well.

A quick summary of the player types in the pot:

Viki is Victoria Casino trained and very solid but is a good winning player and has a good understanding of the game. She has played very few hands.

Jac is a player that loves to be in every pot and has trouble passing a hand. He does have some fair results in tournaments though.

Koresh is very aggressive both in his manners, voice, conversation and his play. He has an ego too.

This is the way it went down:

As far as I can remember Padraig passed under the gun (UTG), Viki Lincoln moved all in (UTG+1) for a small raise (more than two big blinds though). Jac Arama CALLED, he had about double Viki's chips but was still quite low. Koresh moved all in on the small blind. I was in the big blind.

I looked at my cards and found pocket Queens. As I looked up Jac had called Koresh even though I hadn't yet acted. All Jac's chips were in the middle of the table. In *most* places that I have played Jac's call stands.

I now had a very difficult decision to make and started to think. Koresh was verballing me and talking to me under his breath. This hand lasted several minutes and was obviously edited for Channel 4. I thought that Viki may have an Ace, a king, a small pair or at least two biggish cards. I was certain that Jac had a medium Ace, maybe A,10 or A,J. Koresh basically told me that he didn't have aces or kings so I was odds on whatever. Koresh could have had an A,K or maybe A,Q. It was quite likely that he held a pair of 10's or Jack's or even 99s. The one hand that I didn't want to see if I called was AK but I reckoned that at least one or more Aces or possibly a King as well was in the other hands.

I was chip leader and Koresh was in second place. If I called and won I would have a huge chip lead heads up over Padraig. If I called and lost I still had chips left and if Koresh won the pot I would have moved into at least third place prize money (or so I thought).

So I called.

and Jac took his chips back out of the pot and tossed his cards towards the dealer. I asked what was happening as I had quite clearly seen Jac call out of turn. Thomas Kremser, the tournament director, told me that he had passed. I said that he couldn't do this and his chips had to stay in the pot. Thomas, who is a very good tournament director, was using the same rules at the Concord Card Casino in Vienna where he was also tournament director at that time and that was the rule there. So Jac was allowed to pass even though he had called out of turn. I am not sure whether I would have passed otherwise but the thinking may have been different.

Anyway Koresh did have A,K and the turn King cost me a huge pot. Jack went out shortly after in fourth. Padriag knocked me out in third place and then went on to beat Koresh heads up.

This hand played on my mind for a while afterwards and I can remember walking into the Green Room where all the players and friends were watching the final live on a big screen. Daniel Negreanu looked up at me and all he could say was, 'In a heartbeat, I call in a heartbeat Joe.'
The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:34 pm
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Take it you dont like Koresh then Joe Smile
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sundance
Royal Flush


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:56 pm
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The Dean wrote:
Take it you dont like Koresh then Joe Smile


Having played with him and knowing others that have you may struggle to find many that do
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Joe The Elegance Beevers
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:08 pm
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The Dean wrote:
Take it you dont like Koresh then Joe Smile


I don't have much time for him. Let me tell you a story.

A quite well known poker player was in the Vic and wanted to borrow 50. He approached Willie Tan who was playing poker and asked for a loan. Willie declined but was a bit embarrassed as he had a lot of money on the table, several thousand. The nipper wouldn't take no for an answer and Willie started to become a bit annoyed. The nipper went on and on and promised to pay back the 50 the next day. Willie reached into his pocket and found that he only had goolies (oversized 1000 chips). He handed one to the nipper telling him to go to the cash desk and get change and to bring back the 950 change. Off went the nipper with the goolie...

A while passed, maybe 30 or 40 mnutes, and all of a sudden Willie, who was still in his game, realised he had forgotten about the nipper who had not returned. He got up and went to look for him.

He found our nipper at the roulette table with 5 chips spread all over like confetti. The ball landed and our nipper found himself with quite a bit more than a 1000 being pushed his way. He handed Willie 1000 in chips and quickly disappeared to the cash desk with the rest.

Can you guess who the nipper is?

I shouldn't really post this in this forum as that's not what it is for but I though you might enjoy this story.

Now who has a different hand for us to look at and analyse?
valensi_uk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:18 pm
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Shocked

he didnt even offer the tann a drink??!!??
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The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:31 pm
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Joe The Elegance Beevers wrote:
The Dean wrote:
Take it you dont like Koresh then Joe Smile


I don't have much time for him. Let me tell you a story.

A quite well known poker player was in the Vic and wanted to borrow 50. He approached Willie Tan who was playing poker and asked for a loan. Willie declined but was a bit embarrassed as he had a lot of money on the table, several thousand. The nipper wouldn't take no for an answer and Willie started to become a bit annoyed. The nipper went on and on and promised to pay back the 50 the next day. Willie reached into his pocket and found that he only had goolies (oversized 1000 chips). He handed one to the nipper telling him to go to the cash desk and get change and to bring back the 950 change. Off went the nipper with the goolie...

A while passed, maybe 30 or 40 mnutes, and all of a sudden Willie, who was still in his game, realised he had forgotten about the nipper who had not returned. He got up and went to look for him.

He found our nipper at the roulette table with 5 chips spread all over like confetti. The ball landed and our nipper found himself with quite a bit more than a 1000 being pushed his way. He handed Willie 1000 in chips and quickly disappeared to the cash desk with the rest.

Can you guess who the nipper is?

I shouldn't really post this in this forum as that's not what it is for but I though you might enjoy this story.

Now who has a different hand for us to look at and analyse?




Youve been itching to tell that for a while havent you Smile
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