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PeterB
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:32 pm
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You asked at the bottom of the long DY thread why you got to see the hands of players that mucked them. This is a foible of online sites, the principle being that a showdown is a showdown. Therefore, even if your opponent mucks his losing hand because you have declared first, you can see what he or she held by requesting a hand history.

I had discussions with several dealers in Las Vegas about this. I had lost with KK to AA and my opponent immediately asked to look at my cards. I declined and pitched them into the muck. He immediately said "I have a right to see them!" and my response was "sure, all you got to do is find them". He went straight on tilt.

Although the dealers were in agreement that if the cards remained "in play" (i.e., separate from the rest of the deck) they would turn them over, they were not so unanimous on what they would do if the cards had touched the muck, but remained distinctly separate from the muck. Some would say that the cards had been mucked, while others would still turn them over.

The dealers were also not unanimous on how they would rule if you mucked your hand, it remained separate, the other player insisted that he see them, and then it turned out that the "mucked" hand was the winner. Some said that because the hand was mucked, it was no longer in play, while others said that, by demanding a showdown, the cards were resurrected Lazarus-like from the dead and could therefore be a winner.

I mention this only because it is very rare for Vegas dealers not to be in agreement about all known possible occurrences at the poker table.

BTW, Mob, I tried to upload an image for my profile, which was beow 20K in size and in JPG format, but the forum insisted that it still failed to qualify.

Pete
ironside
Full House


Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1245

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:37 pm
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IMHO if a player is called his hand should be shown but if i call with the worst of it i have the right to muck without showing as no one PAID to see my cards

say someone requests a hand history from pokerstars of a tourny i have been playing so they get to see all the hands i been stealing with ?

--Previous Message--

: You asked at the bottom of the long DY thread why you got to see the hands of
: players that mucked them. This is a foible of online sites, the principle being
: that a showdown is a showdown. Therefore, even if your opponent mucks his losing
: hand because you have declared first, you can see what he or she held by
: requesting a hand history.
:
: I had discussions with several dealers in Las Vegas about this. I had lost
: with KK to AA and my opponent immediately asked to look at my cards. I declined
: and pitched them into the muck. He immediately said "I have a right to see
: them!" and my response was "sure, all you got to do is find them". He went
: straight on tilt.
:
: Although the dealers were in agreement that if the cards remained "in play"
: (i.e., separate from the rest of the deck) they would turn them over, they were
: not so unanimous on what they would do if the cards had touched the muck, but
: remained distinctly separate from the muck. Some would say that the cards had
: been mucked, while others would still turn them over.
:
: The dealers were also not unanimous on how they would rule if you mucked your
: hand, it remained separate, the other player insisted that he see them, and then
: it turned out that the "mucked" hand was the winner. Some said that because the
: hand was mucked, it was no longer in play, while others said that, by demanding
: a showdown, the cards were resurrected Lazarus-like from the dead and could
: therefore be a winner.
:
: I mention this only because it is very rare for Vegas dealers not to be in
: agreement about all known possible occurrences at the poker table.
:
: BTW, Mob, I tried to upload an image for my profile, which was beow 20K in
: size and in JPG format, but the forum insisted that it still failed to qualify.
:
: Pete
David Young
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 684

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:39 pm
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Ariston asked the same question at 9.24 yesterday and I posted a response in two parts.

DY
_________________
"Where you and Dominic differ from me, David, is that I [b:1234567890][u:1234567890]do[/u:1234567890][/b:1234567890] believe in the Nanny State."

[i:1234567890]Victoria Coren explains her opposition to the liberalisation of super-casinos, while smoking.[/i:1234567890]
PeterB
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:00 pm
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Obviously they can't see your hands on a steal because there would not have been a showdown. However, if you call with the worst of it, yes, the hand history will show the extent of your foolhardiness.

I make no moral judgements on the correctness of the "showdown" rule. It stems from the "cards speak" system. In theory, all players in at the end should expose their hands, and the dealer declares the winner. That is the way the online rooms operate, except that they imitate "real life" by allowing you to muck without anyone seeing your hand except those who go to the effort to obtain a hand history.

Fairness? Well, as they say, life isn't fair, and it gets worse as you get older...

Pete

--Previous Message--

: IMHO if a player is called his hand should be shown but if i call with the
: worst of it i have the right to muck without showing as no one PAID to see my
: cards
:
: say someone requests a hand history from pokerstars of a tourny i have been
: playing so they get to see all the hands i been stealing with ?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : You asked at the bottom of the long DY thread why you got to see the hands
: of
: : players that mucked them. This is a foible of online sites, the principle
: being
: : that a showdown is a showdown. Therefore, even if your opponent mucks his
: losing
: : hand because you have declared first, you can see what he or she held by
: : requesting a hand history.
: :
: : I had discussions with several dealers in Las Vegas about this. I had lost
: : with KK to AA and my opponent immediately asked to look at my cards. I
: declined
: : and pitched them into the muck. He immediately said "I have a right to see
: : them!" and my response was "sure, all you got to do is find them". He went
: : straight on tilt.
: :
: : Although the dealers were in agreement that if the cards remained "in play"
: : (i.e., separate from the rest of the deck) they would turn them over, they
: were
: : not so unanimous on what they would do if the cards had touched the muck,
: but
: : remained distinctly separate from the muck. Some would say that the cards
: had
: : been mucked, while others would still turn them over.
: :
: : The dealers were also not unanimous on how they would rule if you mucked
: your
: : hand, it remained separate, the other player insisted that he see them, and
: then
: : it turned out that the "mucked" hand was the winner. Some said that because
: the
: : hand was mucked, it was no longer in play, while others said that, by
: demanding
: : a showdown, the cards were resurrected Lazarus-like from the dead and could
: : therefore be a winner.
: :
: : I mention this only because it is very rare for Vegas dealers not to be in
: : agreement about all known possible occurrences at the poker table.
: :
: : BTW, Mob, I tried to upload an image for my profile, which was beow 20K in
: : size and in JPG format, but the forum insisted that it still failed to
: qualify.
: :
: : Pete
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