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Ross_PokerPlayerMag
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Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:16 pm
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I just crashed out of the Stars $200k GTD just before the 2nd break but my exit hand was quite interesting.

I had 8,000 at 200/400 a50 and picked up A-K in the SB. MP raises to 1,050 - hes played pretty tight so far.
Obviously all I am thinking about here is the best way to get the money in with my 20BBs. Normally I would shove pf and be happy either being called or just picking up the dead money.

However I thought about it and decided that it would be better to just 3-bet because I actually want a call by inferior hands that I dominate. So, instead I made it 2,975 and was going to ship the rest in on any flop.

Flop was 2-4-6 and I shipped.

Does anyone agree with this thought process or it is always better to just shove it pre? Does the situation change if Im sat with AA or KK?
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danmonkey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:44 pm
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Really don't like your thought process with AK here. You seriously reduce your expectation with this play against a tight player imo (not necessarily the 3 bet, but the 3 bet with intention to shove regardless).

A few things to consider;

What range is the 'pretty tight player' going to call your 3 bet with?
How many hands that he calls with are you realistically dominating pre-flop?
How many hands that he calls the 3 bet with are you beating on a 2 4 6 flop?
What is tight player going to fold for 5k into a 17k pot on a 246 flop?

Finally, yes, if you have AA or KK its very different.
Shafty78
Two Pair


Joined: 31 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:09 pm
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Donkey, Ross. Just ship it. Flat a lot of the time with AA/KK.
Matt101
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:13 pm
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I think you're thinking too much mate. If you miss the flop what is he folding that you're behind to? If you hit you're giving him a chance to get away. Just ship it in.
Jokeslayer
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:48 pm
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Matt101 wrote:
I think you're thinking too much mate. If you miss the flop what is he folding that you're behind to?


Not the point necessarily. It's possible he'll call and fold the flop with hands he's just fold to a shove (KT or something, say) So we win extra chips because he called preflop. Or something.
Ross_PokerPlayerMag
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:52 pm
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Ok Ok Ok, before I get flamed any longer...

The only reason I posted this was because of the end result and I think that added some value to my argument that making smaller bets with the intention of getting it in on the flop can sometimes be a better move.

I made the raise to 2,975, he flat-called and the flop came 2-4-6 as said. I shoved and he insta-called me with K-6. Now, lets not discuss his unimaginably disgusting and hideous ugly play but instead surely we are ecstatic that we've put him in a spot to call 3k pf with such an awful hand!?

That he sucked out is irrelevant. If I'm shipping 20BBs pf here, I should be doing it with a huge range and not just my good hands. When I pick up a top hand like AK, surely my main aim is to maximise value?
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Matt101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:45 am
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OK so if he misses you pocket an extra 1925, if he hits you lose 7800 (although you might suck out). If you both hit you double up, although the chances of this are pretty small.

I'm pretty sure that if he knew you were holding AK and you intended to push no matter what, it would have been correct for him to call with ATC. Ax or Kx was best case for you but even then I'm pretty sure it's +ev for him.

ps. wouldn't it have been better to check call the flop when you miss, at least you have a chance of inducing a bluff?
esswun
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:53 am
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Matt101 wrote:

ps. wouldn't it have been better to check call the flop when you miss, at least you have a chance of inducing a bluff?

level?
Matt101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:56 am
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s1ngularity wrote:
Matt101 wrote:

ps. wouldn't it have been better to check call the flop when you miss, at least you have a chance of inducing a bluff?

level?


No, why?
esswun
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:57 am
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ship it in and get called by --> worse aces, KQ KJ,
fold out 22-66
profit
(preflop i mean)
esswun
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:00 am
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holy **** u want to c/c with AK on that flop r u fkin kidding me
esswun
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:02 am
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This also sets ur image up nicely for squeezing in a few levels time if you do get called and show the AK and win.
Matt101
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:08 am
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s1ngularity wrote:
holy **** u want to c/c with AK on that flop r u fkin kidding me


Explain why it's wrong.
esswun
Full House


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:31 am
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the stack/pot ratio would probably make him folding any hand more profitable than getting it in
Matt101
Straight Flush


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:58 am
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Depends how certain you are of him pushing. You're risking 11k or so to win an extra 5k. If he has 3 outs it's well worth the gamble, if he has 6 it would be more marginal but still profitable. If he has more than 6 outs I doubt he's folding to a push anyway.

This is all a bit silly anyway, get it in PF and you can't go wrong.
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