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Joe The Elegance Beevers
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Joined: 18 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:18 pm
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What Doyle Brunson Has To Say About Moving the WSOP FT Date

Harrahs is in the business to make money, and we can't blame them. They
don't have to do anything. The poker players are a pawn in their chess game. This
tournament has gotten so big that while we all bitch about what they do, we
break our neck to play in as many events as we can. I think delaying the
final table helps the amateurs and hurts the pros. Lets face facts though, there
won't be many pros at the final table, maybe none. So even though I don't
personally like it, the benefits to poker overall will be positive.

Doyle B
pumbaugh
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:33 pm
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I would like to know what YOU think about the final table being moved Mr. Beevers! Right now I am nothing short of angry at the move, but am going to try to let it set in and reevaluate my thoughts in a week or so and see if my emotions are just getting the best of me right now....
Joe The Elegance Beevers
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:48 pm
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pumbaugh wrote:
I would like to know what YOU think about the final table being moved Mr. Beevers! Right now I am nothing short of angry at the move, but am going to try to let it set in and reevaluate my thoughts in a week or so and see if my emotions are just getting the best of me right now....

Without trying to sound like I'm sitting on the fence I truly am in two minds about it. I was in a similar situation with the Poker Million final that was live on SKY nearly six months after the semis.
Ladbrokes didn't pay everyone sixth place or place all the entry fees or prize money in an interest bearing account for the players either BUT they did ADD a huge amount of prize money. Any event that adds prize money gets my vote and I want to play their events. Gala add money to all their events especially the grand final in Bristol and I play those too.

So I have experienced the 'wait'. At first I didn't like it and would have prefered to play the final much sooner but in hindsight I loved it. I don't make too many big finals, then again I don't play that many events to be honest and the sixth months of knowing that I would be in the final was actually a very enjoyable experience for me personally.

Now I know that the WSOP is different for a number of reasons. Firstly they don't add money and secondly (and very importantly) it isn't a single table format. Then there are the logistics, the sentiment and the people who will all be going to play or watch the WSOP who will be denied a natural climax.

I can see both sides but should the unlikely happen and I make that final believe me not only will I benefit financially by the delay I will also enjoy it!

On another note I don't play many EPTs these days. Isn't it about time that they started adding money?
ScottMGee
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:54 pm
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I think your point about added prize money is the key.

If Harrah's added to the prize pool, then fair enough they can play around with the format.

But as they do not, they should leave it as is.

To be honest the only way to change this is if players boycotted the main event, but hardly anyone would do that and Harrah's know that.
jdklamp
High Card


Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:09 pm
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Gus Hansen has the same opinion.

http://www.theplayr.com/en/news/item.asp?id=110

And I agree too. As long as they add money to the prize pool, everything will be cool.
Joe The Elegance Beevers
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:00 am
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Max Pescatori explains his thoughts in more detail:

Hi everyone,

I would like to elaborate on my previous e-mail about the news that the WSOP changed and will play the final table 4 months later. When previously I used the phrase the council should quit... I did it to stimulate the conversation to this very important topic. I believe there is a serious threat that a situation like this could create. I understand and need to acknowledge that four months of hype could give an extra boost to the main event. However some bad things that can happen and could give poker a setback and maybe send it to the dark ages of smoking rooms and guns just like the old West. Poker is a game that is played by everyone at this moment. Rich and famous, actors, athletes, of course professionals and the many amateurs that have come and loved this game.
I understand that we want to go forward but this way its too dangerous.
Four months of waiting It is too much and let me give you some specific examples of what can
happend:

Cheating: being the champion its not only about money but also about ego. I definitely can see
an amateur making a deal with someone else at the table to dump his chips in exchange of guarantee extra cash. Also, there is the possibility that two players will exchange a considerable percentage at the final table. In one night its very difficult for people know one trusts each other but in four months of planning and for such a large amount of money to play it can easily implement a strategy to tell each other cards and/or play together.
Threats: this is a real thing. Ive been spending some time in Italy because of an injury, and I appreciate more and more been a Vegas resident. And Italy overall its not that bad. People come from all over the world to play the main event and in many cases they dont live in a safe zone. The problem is not really getting killed, but this situation could threat the family of some finalists. It is well known, for example, that Russian hockey players, before signing a big contract in the NHL, move their families in safer zones. Except for the top pros, many players that play in the world series of poker are common people. They are not professional athletes that make money trough a career. Common players dont have the resources to plan and protect their own families for four months, before they will really known how much money they will make. This its just a little example.
Extortions: similar concept but let me give you a scenario: a woman two days before the final come up to you and tell you if you dont give me 50,000$ I will go to the police and tell them youre raped me. Of course you probably, eventually come out of that situation; at the same time however you will be first arrested and in consequence you will miss the final. I seriously doubt that Harrahs will delay the final if someone is waiting for a trial or just got arrested for suspicious of rape. There are many other extortions that could happend.
Illnesses: again its not a question that a player will die, its a question that when you enter an event youre physically and mentally ready. By waiting four months you could have some bad luck get injured and for being diagnosed with some serious illness. A tournament you might win, now you might not even be able to participate in it.

There are of course many other reasons why playing four months later is a bad idea. The fact that many amateur will get better its not the worst of my concern. It takes much more than four months to become a great player of course they will get better but also the pressure is in favor of the pros. Pros can also capitalize on fame more than amateurs can. So its not all bad but I really think the negative things are still much more dangerous than the positive ones. I want to point out that I think Harrahs has done a very good job with the WSOP; ESPN is also one of the reasons why poker is so popular, so this is not a open letter to attack any of them. Who decided this, has, in my opinion, has not considered all of scenarios. It has been reported that the players council agreed on this change. Howard Lederer was prompt to give his reasons. Few others answered briefly. I would like to see the other players that are representing all of us, fully elaborate on this topic.

Thank you for reading my email.

Sincerely

Max Pescatori
Rmaccov
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:06 am
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Joe The Elegance Beevers wrote:
Max Pescatori explains his thoughts in more detail:

Extortions: similar concept but let me give you a scenario: a woman two days before the final come up to you and tell you if you dont give me 50,000$ I will go to the police and tell them youre raped me. Of course you probably, eventually come out of that situation; at the same time however you will be first arrested and in consequence you will miss the final. I seriously doubt that Harrahs will delay the final if someone is waiting for a trial or just got arrested for suspicious of rape. There are many other extortions that could happend.


These extortion attempts could just as easily be made to poker players who make a lot of money in a tournament afterwards so I don't see this as going against the 4 month delay.
JayCbee
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:24 am
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Good thread. Some very interesting points made by someone who knows a lot more about this game than me.

However I will try to put my concerns over this change over.

The thing that bothers me is I think the marathon aspect of the WSOP main event has a role to play (for both the viewing public and also the players) and by splitting the final table to a much later date some of the momentum of the tournament may be lost.

Can you imagine Wimbledon playing to the semi-finals - taking off 3 months - then all getting back together for the final?

For some of the people who play in this event and get to the business end its dream making stuff. They dont play in big event after big event. They may not even be able to play at that level again until they return to the final table. They may come back cold and intimidated after hitting the poker zone during the push to the final table over however many days it took to get there.

I find it personally bad enough playing in two day events and feeling great about my game - making day 2 - then playing like a complete prat at the final. And thats just on 1 nights sleep lol.

Its maybe a silly argument but as a fan of the WSOP coverage by ESPN I just dont like this change. I was genuinely shocked when I read it and really saw it as a big mistake. I may be swayed when I see how they handle it but to me something is being lost here.

Difficult to put what I mean into words I just hope you get my drift.
peterH
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:30 am
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This is all going to end up in a World Cup type series of qualifying groups, with each country/continent producing a group of players who meet-up in Vegas to battle out the final few tables.

"In seat one, representing Europe............
In seat two, from the Oceana group............."



(PS I claim this idea as my own and want money for it if Harrahs think its good and take it up!)
NevadaKaz
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:40 pm
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Rmaccov wrote:
Joe The Elegance Beevers wrote:
Max Pescatori explains his thoughts in more detail:

Extortions: similar concept but let me give you a scenario: a woman two days before the final come up to you and tell you if you dont give me 50,000$ I will go to the police and tell them youre raped me. Of course you probably, eventually come out of that situation; at the same time however you will be first arrested and in consequence you will miss the final. I seriously doubt that Harrahs will delay the final if someone is waiting for a trial or just got arrested for suspicious of rape. There are many other extortions that could happend.


These extortion attempts could just as easily be made to poker players who make a lot of money in a tournament afterwards so I don't see this as going against the 4 month delay.


Sure extortion attempts could happen after the win, but I think Max was worried about a final table player being in prison/jail whilst the final table is being played.
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CarpeAnnum
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:41 pm
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There is something else to consider. History!

The point has been brought up as to what happens if someone dies. Howard Lederer is convinced that Harrahs will do the right thing but they can't.

Say your father (insert brother, son, mother, etc) made the final table. You have been deprived the opportunity of watching them in th WSOP final and they have been denied the opportunity of going down in the history books as the WORLD CHAMPION. It's not just about the money.
andyexpat
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:25 am
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The natural extention of delaying the Main Event Final will be to delay all the bracelet finals, and have a month of final tables. If this idea is profitable for one tournament, then why not do it for all the bracelet tournaments?

I think that delaying the final is a stupid idea for a multitude of reasons, which anyone with an ounce of common sense will understand why.

There has to be a line drawn between the commercialisation of poker and safeguarding it's rules and traditions.
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FloppedAces2
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:37 pm
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Where does the WSOPE stand in all this? Isnt that September? It will take some of the gloss off that particular tournament as it will be sandwiched in the middle of the series and the "grand" final!
Indestructible
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:02 pm
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FloppedAces2 wrote:
Where does the WSOPE stand in all this? Isnt that September? It will take some of the gloss off that particular tournament as it will be sandwiched in the middle of the series and the "grand" final!


Interesting to read the Phil Hellmuth interview in Poker Player mag. Amongst other quotes on the WSOPE he said he is not entering the wsope this year, and he doesn't hink Doyle or Johnny Chan will be either. Confused
craigdunn
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:25 am
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Indestructable wrote:

Interesting to read the Phil Hellmuth interview in Poker Player mag. Amongst other quotes on the WSOPE he said he is not entering the wsope this year, and he doesn't hink Doyle or Johnny Chan will be either. Confused


What? No double-decker this year?
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