Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: What the Pros Think About the WSOP Final Delayed Until Nov
What the Pros Think About the WSOP Final Delayed Until Nov
Roland de Wolfe
Quote:
Hi All,
Is this really going ahead? It takes away so much from the integrity of the event. In three months players ability and mentality can be totally changed. It would almost like be playing different players.
It is also dangerous for the players, leaving them vulnerable to corruption and threats. When tens of millions are on the line the wrong types are attracted to try to influence proceedings. This time window could be a serious opportunity for them.
It may also discourage people, especially those travelling cross continent to not enter the event, if they do not want to travel twice or have commitments in November
And what if a player dies in the meantime?
This is a poorly thought out idea in my opinion. There are some positives that are far outweighed by the negatives here.I really think for the good of the game it should be overturned. This is a very player unfriendly idea and I sincerely hope we can voice our disenchantment with this. I feel our greatest event is being taken away from us. Is my position supported?
Roland says "What if a player dies?". If I'm chip leader I would be afraid to get murdered...
There is so many reasons why this is madness, Roland already pointed out the main ones.
Question: are the "wsop players advisers" going to do anything about this? If u don't get heard, you should all quit !!! And If u agree with this change/proposal, u should also quit, since u are not smart enough.
First of all, I would like to say that this discussion reminds of one the poker community had about 6 years ago: "We can't show hole cards! It will ruin the game and we'll all lose our edge." That opinion proved wrong and many of the most vocal opponents of hole-card cams have profited greatly by poker's staggering growth. We can all sit back and see poker's TV ratings erode, or we can stand up and take a chance that this could turn things around. The mainstream media attention will be huge, resulting in media exposure to the 5th place finisher this year, that will dwarf last year's second place finisher.
-- Roland says-- In three months players ability and mentality can be totally
changed. It would almost like be playing different players.
The fact that the players might get better, is fair to all players as it's the rules before the event starts. The delay will benefit pros and amateurs in fair but different ways. If you're a pro, you may not get the benefit of getting much better, but the media value to you as an established pro during this 3 months of attention will be huge. Also as a pro, you may actually get to see an amateur's play on TV before facing him, unheard of these days. Other pros being hired as coaches will also be a neat story. Of course, amateurs will get the opportunity to get much better and become media stars over night. If you have a cool story to tell combined with the fact that MIGHT win the world championship, that sells. That same story combined with the fact that you finished 5th three months ago, doesn't sell.
--Roland says-- It is also dangerous for the players, leaving them vulnerable to
corruption and threats. When tens of millions are on the line the wrong
types are attracted to try to influence proceedings. This time window
could be a serious opportunity for them.
The bright light of the media attention will discourage cheating. Harrah's will also make sure every player knows the dire consequences of getting caught cheating (forfeiture of the money and life-time ban). The paranoid fantasy of death threats is absurd. Every week there are huge numbers of pro athletes who could be killed, with huge money being won and lost by dishonest gamblers who knew about the hit ahead of time. But there is no evidence any athlete has ever been killed for gambling profit. Also, every hand can be reviewed to make sure there was no clear pattern of collusion. Also, what is to stop two players from making a deal to collude overnight between the last two days of the main event in its former format? If they get caught, it will cost them big money, a life-time ban and their reputations. I suspect those deterrents will be effective here.
--Roland says-- It may also discourage people, especially those traveling cross continent
to not enter the event, if they do not want to travel twice or have
commitments in November
I somehow suspect that traveling a second time to Vegas to play for millions will not be a deterrent.
--Roland says-- And what if a player dies in the meantime?
Highly unlikely (probably <1%), but I'm sure Harrah's will do the right think if that happened.
-- Max says-- Question: are the "wsop players advisers" going to do anything about this? If u don't get heard, you should all quit !!! And If u agree with this change/proposal, u should also quit, since u are not smart enough.
We are definitely heard. If you know the line-up of Player's Advisory Council members, we aren't ones who would stick around if we aren't being heard. Does that mean that what we want we always get? Of course not. All of our opinions are heard, and most of our strong suggestions are implemented. I think you will see a much better schedule and vastly improved structures this year, for example. I can also say that, according to you, just about every member of the PAC should resign due to stupidity. Though this idea was generated between Harrah's and ESPN, it received near unanimous support among the PAC members. I have no plans to resign just yet.
In my opinion this is an ambitious attempt to put some "buzz" back into the Main Event. All sports have to evolve to compete in an ever more competitive sports entertainment landscape. If we don't do something, we could be off ESPN before you know it. That would not be good. This may be radical, but is was done with due deliberation. We can't let long shot worst-case scenarios stop us from moving forward. If this gets poker to cross over to the media mainstream, it will benefit us all, not just Harrah's and ESPN. I think it's a great idea.
Howard
Scott Fischman
Quote:
hey all,
I am generally completely against new rules and formats that greatly affect the outcome of the game and take skill out of the hands of the players. There have been more then a few of these type of changes made over the past few years.
One of the more horrific format changes that comes to mind is the "5 levels per day then redraw" that has been implemented in most of our main events these days. This particular rule takes so much of the skill and advantage right out of our hands and with no real upside that i know of.
The biggest downside that i see with this "future final table" format is that you are just going to be playing a completely different tournament when it resumes. I am sure we are all familiar with how different the game can be from day to day let alone 4 months. The novice players will surely have ample time to acquire coaching, and everyone will be able to do some homework on the known players at the table, which i don't feel is that big of a deal anyhow because players can do this from day to day anyhow.
The main issue in my mind is the fact that everybody is now a different player under a new set of factors that will be determining their decisions. For example, there is a time and a place where laying down KK and other big starting hands is very easy pre-flop. And playing for 10 million would seem like the right place to be able to get off a big hand but if you sit me down at a "new" table this just isn't going to be the case.
I agree with a lot of Howard's points. I have to admit, I have certainly been a part of the public that has stopped watching ESPN poker. I think it has more to do with all the screaming, the "shark" and side story crap not to mention how many players got broke during the commercial break. The milwaukee's best light ad ends and you hear Norman Chad saying, "We are rejoining the action and Joe Blow is allin with J-7 against Tommy's Q-2... the board reads 4-3-8-K..... and Joe will need to catch a J or a 7 on the river or he will be eliminated in 7th place." I mean this kid might have been waiting his whole life to make a wsop final table, he has been telling everyone that will listen about this sick hand and told them to watch him on TV but then the entire hand gets cutoff so they have extra time to tell us all about Timmy's family and a poker game he played in second grade when doyle was in his home town.
I think something needs to be done but maybe just not this, it would change the outcome too dramatically. I would be willing to bet that had this format been in place over the past 5 years of ESPN poker we could very likely be seen with 5 comletely diff champions then we currently hold. I suggest a look at the producers of the shows for a start. I also think that doubling the starting stacks and changing the structure of the tourney has been the biggest reason for the decline of viewership. Less pros make the FT, which leads to less interest from the public. I think Harrah's is trying to appeal more to the amateurs and get big numbers of players to vegas every year for 2 months. You can't have 10,000 people in a tourney, give them 20k starting stack and horrible playing conditions and then expect there to be a star studded final table.
So Howard is basically saying that it's worth the hassle, the many potential dangers, the loss of momentum, the further break with tradition, the removal of the opportunity for people who played the main event to stay and watch the final, etc., because it means more media attention?! There's not enough media attention on poker already?! The WSOP isn't already making enough mistakes by changing itself to suit television rather than inviting television just to cover what it is (eg. incredible delays during the hand-for-hand when everyone has to wait for the cameras) ?
You have to bear in mind, Howard is coming at it from the point of view of being one of those people who has chosen heavy self-promotion and a big TV push - nothing wrong with that, but for a lot of people the media spotlight is actually a down side of modern poker, and many would argue that it's in some ways better to come 2nd or 3rd in the WSOP than win it, because you still get a few million but you don't have to be recognized everywhere you go!
Personally I think it's an annoying and stupid change, breaking the essential nature of what a poker tournament IS. It's like the Olympic Committee deciding that, in order to maximize coverage, they were going to run the first three legs of the 4 x 100m relay and then stop, put marks on the track, and the final runners would come back and sprint the last 100m six months later after everyone else had gone home.
I can't believe howard is comparing this to card cams.....
The only comparison is that they were both opposed, that's it....that's not enough to be lumped in the same category howard.
a very weak argument...
Howard is fulltilt, fulltilt and their sheeple pro players whore themselves where they can.....cough* harrah $$$ espn..TV $$$ howard's wallet $$$ cough* what?
--Roland says-- And what if a player dies in the meantime?
-- Howard say-- Highly unlikely (probably <1%), but I'm sure Harrah's will do the right think if that happened.
What is the right thing? Pay a named beneficary first place money out of their own pockets? Give the beneficary the chip equity of the players stack out of their own pockets.
...We can all sit back and see poker's TV ratings erode, or we can stand up and take a chance that this could turn things around.
... Though this idea was generated between Harrah's and ESPN, it received near unanimous support among the PAC members....
This clearly shows the origin of the idea - a group of men in suits sitting around a boardroom table trying to work out how to increase advertising revenue.
I suspect the extent to which the Players Advisory Council had any involvement was that it may have been up to them to find a way to sell it to poker players.
The weakness of the arguments they have come up with demonstrates how much of a challenge this is.
If the Poker World Champion is going to be decided by a tournament that you have to satellite in to, then this is not the way it should be done. _________________ Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield
2010/11 UK Team Championships: Black Belt Poker Team Captain
5 Star HORSE Classics - 2007 Razz Champion
2007 WSOP Razz - 13/341
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 2449 Location: Aberdeen
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject:
Checkov wrote:
--Roland says-- And what if a player dies in the meantime?
-- Howard say-- Highly unlikely (probably <1%), but I'm sure Harrah's will do the right think if that happened.
What is the right thing? Pay a named beneficary first place money out of their own pockets? Give the beneficary the chip equity of the players stack out of their own pockets.
Well as they've already said that any no-show for the final table will be blinded off, I guess for Howard that is "the right thing".
I imagine he would be alone in that assessment of what is right.
I would have thought your chip equity suggestion would be the right thing, but no way will that happen.
So Howard is basically saying that it's worth the hassle, the many potential dangers, the loss of momentum, the further break with tradition, the removal of the opportunity for people who played the main event to stay and watch the final, etc., because it means more media attention?! There's not enough media attention on poker already?! The WSOP isn't already making enough mistakes by changing itself to suit television rather than inviting television just to cover what it is (eg. incredible delays during the hand-for-hand when everyone has to wait for the cameras) ?
Spot on - it seems directly analogous with the paths football (and more recently rugby and cricket) have taken - putting chasing TV ratings and audience share above the needs, requirements, traditions and integrity of the "product" itself. Coupled with the commissioning policy for TV comedy it is enough to make one (or at least me) despair about the TV-exec-dominance over all things. Lowest-common-demoninator fear-driven bullshit.
I think some people are taking this exibition-donkament too seriously.
The tournament is a joke, it doesn't have any tradition because the original events were a $50,000 buy-in in real terms. This is the equivalent of some $2,000 crapshoot from the seventies.
They should do whatever they can to keep it as prominent on ESPN as possible; and keep attracting new players to the game and keep it in the legitimate public eye.
The HORSE is the new Main Event, with a final table during the festival, so nothing has really changed.
Scott whining that his edge may be reduced will never help the case - there is a very good reason we are playing Texas Hold'em and not chess.
Agree with Alex, and this works for the mass-media coverage, but it does mean that the poker-media and community should be fecousing the "internal" hype and interest on the HORSE, not on the TV-tedium.
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 442 Location: North East
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject:
I think its a bad idea for those who will be playing, though not as bad as some people think.
For the wider poker community, it's probably a good thing if it gets more people interested, or gets them playing again. _________________ Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self.
I think its a great idea. I bet Ricky Hatton wishes the last 4 rounds of his Mayweather fight were delayed by 5 months. _________________ Did you know you can now use your poker bankroll to try your hand at blackjack?
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