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The Reverend
In Rhythm


Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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Location: In Rhythm

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:19 am
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mattpoker wrote:
Why don't poker players, if they're betting big amounts, have official handicaps?


These guys regularly wager and loan large amounts between each other, they are supposed to be able to take this sort of thing on trust.
Grumbledook
Royal Flush


Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 16061

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:21 am
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this story needs naked chics :/

golf is nearly as boring as cricket
ThechipLeadV
Smart-Arse


Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 6276

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:22 am
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Grumbledook wrote:
this story needs naked chics :/

golf is nearly as boring as cricket


Damn right it does



Last edited by ThechipLeadV on Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Grumbledook
Royal Flush


Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 16061

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:42 am
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now we are cooking!
ariston
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:49 am
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Although a friend has lied to you and ripped you off blatantly I think any arbitrator is going to rule in favour of Phil and you are going to have to pay something . I would think Phil does owe you an apology but you are going to have to pay an ammount on an "adjusted" handicap mark for all parties involved.

I have been one of the staunchest defenders to random attacks on forums of the 2 of you but now I've got your full statement on it I think you are going to lose the arbitration. Theres no such things as friends on the poker table and to Americans the same goes for golf (not as honourable as the English obviously). You know the way things go over there by now- when playing on "vegas rules" if someone is conned its seen as a good thing by the person who has done the conning and the other man is stupid for being conned, I am not saying you are stupid Ram but you have to learn who your friends are and Phil is just another cheat who wants to win at all costs. We now know the price of Phils reputation and I think yours will stay intact after the arbitration and settlement (whatever that is).

Good luck with it all


Just a quick story to show the sort of person Ram is. A couple of years ago he played a heads up game with a scadie in my hotel room where there were maybe 50 spectators. The room service tab was over 2k and I am not the richest of players and was pretty skint at the time. Ram lost around 80k in the match and the winner and his friends all threw me some money not realising how much had been drank during the session, it wasn't going to cover it and it was probably my fault for not checking the tab before everyone left. Even though Ram had lost he was the last one left with Ross and he asked me if I had collected enough to cover the bill. Although I tried to front it and say it was ok (he had just lost 80k after all) he chucked in 1k to make sure the tab was covered and I wasn't out of pocket. At the airport a few hours later (after I had paid the bill) I tried to give ram the 300 change from the bill and he wouldn't take it.
degeneratum1
High Card


Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:56 am
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zebediah wrote:
A lot yanks like to glorify hustling these days.
But truth be known, hustlers that were caught in times past weren't treated nicely by them.

It seems Ram saw these games as "amongst friends" with 10 or 20 grand going to the best player. Not a chance to hustle big money.


i am a yank and i dont glorify hustling in the sense of cheating, lying, or otherwise acting unfairly. i had a good sense that ram was probably the more honest of the two, and now i know for sure.

someone who reserves judgment, is quiet until they have reason and information to act upon usually has dignity, and i can say that for ram.

ram u seem like a true gentleman, and if it were me, id dismiss the notion of paying money in a game that was admittedly unfair. he shouldnt have a problem with that.

and as for dan n, the guy is a mess. he is the epitome of a fake person. good luck all

and to the mods here, id think about coming up with a new ranking system, or at least changing the no pair to something like k high
mattpoker
Straight


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:02 pm
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I guess it's a cultural thing.

I think if an arbitrator felt the need for an adjusted handicap then it shows right there that the bet was wrong. So null and void as cheating was going on.

The Vegas hustlers just think that's clever. Bless 'em.
balloo
Full House


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 1195

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:07 pm
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Ram this is Blair Rodmans take on Golf hustling and betting.... Thoughts??

Quote:
Iíve been golf gambling for over 20 years. In fact, itís my favorite form of gambling. I learned early on that thereís a big difference between golfing gamblers and regular golfers.
Golf as played by normal people is a genteel sport set apart from most by itsí traditions of honesty and good sportsmanship. Golf to gamblers is simply another medium in which to try to get an advantage over your opponents. Standard protocols of normal golf have nothing to do with golf gambling. However, there are some protocols that apply to golf gambling.
The first thing I learned about golf gambling is that every experienced golf gambler lies about his abilities. This is part of the game! If you ask a group of golf gamblers how they are playing, virtually every one is going to say he hasnít been playing, various body parts hurt, his game is off, etc. This is SOP! If you donít understand this, or refuse to play that game, you are setting yourself up for a big fall. Itís not lying in this context, just as bluffing in poker isnít lying in the traditional sense. It is within the context of the game. Once all the [censored]is out of the way, you can get down to real negotiations. Often in big money matches the negotiations fall flat and thereís no game. No big deal. Iíve been on the first tee many times when the game falls apart.
If this story is true, Phil simply used an age-old tactic in golf gambling. If youíre playing better than anyone expects and are going to play for serious money, are you going to tell your opponents the truth? Not if you want to survive in the golf-gambling world. How did Phil know his opponents werenít trying to do the same to him, not that it matters for the scope of this discussion.
The bottom line is that Philís opponents are professional gamblers who got involved in a gambling game they seem to know little about. To get involved with someone in a golf match for serious money just on the basis of his word is dumb, and dumb people donít survive in this milieu.

To quote Marc Goodwin, assuming that post was really from him:

ďAt the start of the game we said to Phil that as we haven't played for 3 months and he must have improved we need to adjust the handicaps. We could not agree and we were doomed to no game until Ram said "does Eric Lingdren still give you 10 shots" to which Phil replied yes!!On that piece of information we had a game. As we always ***** about handicaps throughout the match Phil suggested that we agree to play 18 holes with no adjustment and then adjust for the next series of games. We agreed

Think about it. They knew Phil was improving rapidly. They were on the verge of not having a match because Phil wouldnít agree to an adjustment. But, instead of walking away they wanted to play so badly that they believed Phil when he said EDog still gives him shots. Perhaps this is because, as Marc states, they had been getting the best of him in the past and wanted more. Then they agreed to a match for very big money and, to make it worse, agreed to Philís stipulation that thereíd be no mid-round adjustment. Sorry guys, you lost the negotiation game, which is every bit as important in golf gambling as the playing of the game itself. Pay up, lesson learned.


Quote:
Some more thoughts on golf gambling:

It seems to me that many posters in this thread are confusing golf with golf gambling. I love golf and would play without gamblingóif no one would bet with me. However, not many gamblers feel that way. (Russ Hamilton, one of the best golf gamblers ever, told me a few years ago that a guy invited him to Augusta. Most golfers would kill for the chance. I asked when he (we) were going. He said, ďIím not going there with him. He wonít play for anything.) Very few gamblers keep actual handicaps. I keep a legitimate handicap and like to play amateur tournaments. However, thatís where the real cheaters are! There isnít an understanding in amateur tournaments that sandbagging is part of the game. To keep an illegitimate handicap is cheating, period. This is because thereís no negotiation involved. The players are taken at their word. I lived in Palm Springs a few years ago and couldnít believe the things I saw. Handicaps are designed so that a player should only play to his handicap about 20% of the time. To shoot 10 strokes below your handicap should happen less than 1 in 50,000 times. Yet, in almost every tournament I played there someone with a 20 handicap would shoot in the Ď70s in the last round. A lot of guys make a living cheating these tournaments. It got so bad that I quit playing them, unless I really wanted to play and then I pretty much accepted that I couldnít win.
The gamblers system is much more efficient. When Iíd meet someone new at a course in Palm Springs, the standard conversation went like this:

Stranger: ďWhatís your handicap?Ē
Me: ďAbout a 5.Ē
Stranger: ďOk Iím a 15, so Iíll take 5 shots a side. Let's go.Ē
Me; ďNo problem, unless you want to play for more than $5. Then we need to talk.Ē

I would never play a stranger for any kind of serious money unless I had some reliable information about their game. I would also never get in a big match with someone who I knew might have improved rapidly unless I knew his story. Among gamblers this information is fairly easy to gather. Iíve never played golf with Ivey, but I know though the grapevine that heís worked very hard on his game and has improved a lot. Iíve also heard that he was a live one when he first started playing the game, but now heís almost impossible to match up with. If I had any doubts about someoneís current game, if I played him at all it would be for small stakes until I got a good feel for what I was up against.
I have a fairly large group of players I gamble with. We all know each otherís games pretty well and generally have to resort to a system of adjusting after each match if someone wins or loses a certain amount of bets. For the most part the money goes back and forth and we play those matches because we like the game and the action. (The same thing happens in the big game with Doyle, Chip, Bobby Baldwin, occasionally Michael Jordan and a few others. Their back and forths are just bigger). Big money heads up matches are fairly rare among players who know each otherís games. However, this doesnít mean there are never any big money decisions. A big part of the skill of golf gambling is handicapping different types of bets. If a game can be devised where both sides think they have an edge, you have the conditions for a big bet. If you sit around B&M poker tables, a lot of the conversation is about golf and setting up matches for the next day. Scrambles are popular these days. For instance, a negotiation might go like this:

ďMe and Jeff will scramble Richard, Jack, Greg and Greg. And Greg gets the blue tees.Ē (Greg and Greg are the same person, but he hits two shots)
ďOK but Greg only gets one putt.Ē
ďNo, he needs two putts.Ē
ďThen he has to play the black tees.Ē
ďNo he gets blue tees and two putts on 9 holes.Ē
ďOk, I donít like it but weíll try it. How muchÖ..Ē

Often these kinds of matches will be negotiated for an emergency 9 or 18 after the early round of heads up matches.

When poker players get the urge to enter the golf gambling world the pattern is generally the same. They are often very bad players who donít understand the golf-gambling game and get taken advantage of by experienced gamblers. Eventually they figure out that something isnít right and smarten up to the fact that they are being hustled. Then they either quit playing, or accept the realities and learn how to negotiate. If they stay in the game, eventually they figure out that they have an opportunity to recoup their losses and then some if they get better without their opponentsí knowledge and get games in which they have a big edge. Sound familiar? Getting this edge is a limited opportunity. The improvement curve in golf is sharp at the beginning but levels out as a player gets better. While itís fairly easy to go from a 40 handicap to a 20. itís much harder to go from a 10 to a 5. Even with a system of adjustment the bad player figures to win a lot of money as he improves. The smart gambler wonít fall for this, insisting or major adjustments as his opponent gets better.

Iím not saying that the things Iíve described are good or bad( other than the handicap sandbagging), but they are the realities. Iím also not saying thereís no cheating in golf gambling. The rules of play are established, and breaking them is cheating. Since most gambling golfers donít know the rules, a bastardized version is often used. The most extreme variation is called ďgambler rulesĒ. Under gamblers rules, you canít touch your ball anywhere before youíre on the green without incurring a penalty. On a sprinkler headóhit it. Cart pathóhit it. On top of a golf cartóyou guessed it. Many players use grease (Vaseline or something like it) on their club face to straighten out shots. Occasionally this is specifically outlawed. Few players adhere to the 14-club rule. I knew one guy who carried about twelve woods and four putters

There are people who will move balls, drop balls from their pocket, step on your ball, and lots of other things. Never take a partner you donít trust, as you may get dumped. Just like in any gambling endeavor, you need to have your eyes wide open and your senses acute. The good thing about the gamblersí system is that cheating players are usually exposed and shunned in games. That is, unless they are so bad that they are still live even with cheating.

So what happens when the game is a fair matchup? Thatís when the really talented golf gamblers step up. In my mind there are two kinds of successful golf gamblers (other than cheaters). Some will never play a game where they donít have an edge off the first tee. Their whole game is in the negotiation and itís fairly easy to play when thereís little pressure. Games often dry up for these players. The serious ones take to the road looking for new suckers. Read abut Titanic Thompson if you want to see a real hustler in action. The other type of successful player is the one who can play under pressure. Sure, heíll take a good game if it comes up, but he relies more on his ability to outperform his opponent when it counts. Many players canít make the shot when it counts. A player who can step up when it counts doesnít need a lopsided game. In fact, against certain players he can take a bit the worst of the matchup and still be successful.

Sorry this got long, but I love this game!


Quote:
There are no established handicaps. In this world they have no significance. If someone were to pull out a forged handicap card, theyíd get laughed off the tee. No one would believe them. Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker. When my group meets before playing, we all tells our lies, fake our pains, etc, laugh about it and then get on with the real talks. For the most part, our games are already set from previous experience and adjustments. This is a matter of necessity, because otherwise we might never tee off. However, there are usually some team bets or other odd wagers negotiated to make it more interesting. If you are out-negotiated, you accept it and go on.

For big money matches, the negotiation process is more involved, with more involved intelligence gathering. Asking opinions from other players who are respected for their match-handicapping ability is common. Often people not playing in the match will have action on one side or the other and will come out to sweat the match and maybe make more side bets. Watching respected handicappers closely as far as who they want to bet on which side can give clues as to the balance of the match.

-There are established rules and protocols. They are just different from the other golf arenas. Often specific things, such as how to play a ball if itís hit into the desert, are negotiated. The fact that practices such as using grease (which does help high handicappers, BTW) carrying more than 14 clubs, etc, are verboten in the other golf arenas means nothing. However, the rules that are establishes must be followed. (Occasionally the stipulation will be that actual golf rules are followed). To do differently is cheating, and cheaters will be ostracized. Itís silly to say that shooting someone or even moving a ball when itís against the rules is fair game. Golf gambling isnít golf per se. The game is just a means of gambling, just as a deck of cards or a pair of dice. The rules evolve to facilitate the gambling, but the rules of the day must be followed.

This thread is a perfect example of people living in different worlds and not understanding others than their own. I think one of the things that is obvious from this thread is that people from outside the US are more traditional than Americans and have trouble fully comprehending the golf gambling arena as practiced by Americans. Itís possible that Iveyís non-American victims didnít fully understand which arena Phil was playing in. But, I think they did. Hereís a quote from Goodwin;

"tomorrow we head off with Phil Ivey and Gus Hanson for a high stakes golf match with my partner in crime Ram Vaswani. One round of golf is worth a yearís winnings on the Europen Tour so, as you can imagine, some serious verbal takes place, with all sides trying to negotiate the best handicap - the reason we win is that Ram is different class at winding up Mr Ivey."

To me itís obvious that they simply lost the negotiation game. They made a bad game, and then compounded the mistake by agreeing to a no-adjustment stipulation, thereby not leaving themselves an out. To get mad is one thing. To not pay is another. I think theyíll pay. They are gamblers and thereís a code. Whether theyíll play with Phil again is another question.

There is a real question of being able to move seamlessly from world to world without the lines becoming blurred. Very similar to poker. Bluffing is basically lying. Does this mean that all poker players are liars away from the table? Of course notósome may be, some not. Is someone who lies in a golf negotiation in the gambling world a liar otherwise? No, heís simply playing the game by the rules. However, if he carried this over to the handicap golf arena, heíd be a liar and a cheat in that world.

The motto of this storyóknow what game you are playing before you play it.
Samurai_tony
One Pair


Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:17 pm
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The poker cheating analogy is a bad one because you are directly breaking the rules of omaha. If phil had used some special ball or had deliberatly tainted your clubs in some way then yes i would agree with you but in your anaolgy what happened to you was like daniel playing patrick for a million dollars a day after patrick said " i havent played omaha in a while, im rusty " when in fact he had been playing constantly, do you think daniel would be enraged and refuse to pay him?

If this bet had been for $ 10 a hole would you have refused to pay? it seems to me you made a very risky bet that was out of your comfort zone, i am amazed that playing for effectivly 1 million dollars you didnt check or be more diligent in your preparation. I was genuinly impressed you stuck out the 18 holes because i thought that was the nature of the bet, 50 k a hole for a round, if in fact it was just per hole why in gods name did you stick it out when it was so clear you were outmatched? If it required someone to come up afterwards to tell you " the guy you just played is way better than you " and you didnt realise it before....how much better could he be?

If there is some rule phil has broken then it might be a different matter, if you truly have never lied about you ability in a game of any kind when money was involved then fair dos but it seems to me you made a bet and lost and should pay the amount you wagered, if you had miraculously won and then found out about the situation would you have refused to accept his money? If the answer is no then surely you were totally freerolling?

The facts in the case seem reamarkably irrelevant, it doesnt really matter how much has been won or lost previously, i have no doubt ram is an extremely nice person as i have been told so from everyone i know who has met him. This doesnt reallt affect the situation, whether ram won or lost 5k or 100k previously, whether he is a nice guy, there was a wager made, one person knew there was an advantage in the nature of the wager and when that was exposed the other person refused to pay. I find it almost comical on a poker forum that people are talking as if they have never ever made money from a situation like this, you have never sat with a drunk person at a poker table who clearly wasnt capable of playing to his usual standard and taken money from him? The whole nature of betting is one of who has the best information and who has the advantage, if you wound up losing money to a bookie who knew that federer had just been dumped by his girlfriend, his dog had died and he had sprained his ankle just before a match...therefore giving you an amazing price, would yuo refuse to pay him because he didnt tell you about that?
Barny
Mobster


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 1136

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:23 pm
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BR says

"The motto of this storyóknow what game you are playing before you play it. "

I guess that tells you about the cultural difference here. We have morals, you have mottos!
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If it wasn't for luck I'd lose every tournament I played...If I wanted to manage a bankroll I'd be a bank manager.
The Reverend
In Rhythm


Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 6193
Location: In Rhythm

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:24 pm
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Samurai_tony wrote:
The whole nature of betting is one of who has the best information and who has the advantage, if you wound up losing money to a bookie who knew that federer had just been dumped by his girlfriend, his dog had died and he had sprained his ankle just before a match...therefore giving you an amazing price, would yuo refuse to pay him because he didnt tell you about that?


No, but if the bookmaker knew that Federer had agreed to throw the match I would. Whilst neither analogy is really that close, that's more representative of Phil's behaviour here.
balloo
Full House


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 1195

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:27 pm
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Barny wrote:
BR says

"The motto of this storyóknow what game you are playing before you play it. "

I guess that tells you about the cultural difference here. We have morals, you have mottos!



Its amazing the difference in the UK take on this compared to the Americans! They basically see it as a standard hustle.
Squirmy
Trips


Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:29 pm
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A golf handicap is THE fundamental part of the game. Its clearly more important than the ball, the clubs or even talking when someone's playing. If Tiger Woods gave me 3 shots a hole rather than the 2!!! he should actually give me I would beat him, same as if he had to play with a ball made from sponge.

Playing Golf with a false handicap is EXACTLY like having extra cards in Omaha, it is a basic straightforward numerical advantage against the rules of the game. If Phil had given Ram faulty clubs do you think that the bet would stand, I don't think so.
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kennl
Straight


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:31 pm
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Tony you missing 1 vital part of the puzzle, this was a bet made between friends - so change the statement 'have you ever sat at a table with a drunk friend and taken advantage' well i can quite clearly say NO i havent - tell you what i have done i have got them off the table pronto.

When you gamble with friends the important thing is to be honest when discussing things such as handicaps.

Good example - Ram doesnt know me and im a 12 handicapper - i go lets play for $10k a hole and i play off a 24 you play of your normal handicap - do you honestly think any logical thinking person would accept me for my word when he doesnt know me and take the bet - i dont think so

Now if you consider someone a friend and they tell you there handicap then thats completely different - so lets say i have known Ram for 10 years but the last year i been out of the country and we meet up for a $10k hole game - do you seriosuly think as a friend i wouldnt be honest with him

Get real buddy!
Joe The Elegance Beevers
Mobster


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:36 pm
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There are several threads on several forums about this and it's impossible to keep up with all of them. It's hard enough for Ram to keep up with this one. Ram suggested that this was all one big con to get him to post on the forum and that we were all in on it. Laughing

He's not going to answer every question but any direct questions from Phil or Daniel on here will get a direct response from Ram.

The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not it is ok to lie to a friend, betray friendship and trust to take a friend's money when they have no chance of winning.

Samurai Tony - please ask yourself if you would try to cheat a good friend of yours in this way. I realise that many posters think that this is ok. If you do think that way then you don't deserve any friends and (IMHO) you don't deserve to get paid either.

Samurai Tony, would you do what Phil did to a friend of yours?
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