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IveGotOuts
One Pair


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:30 pm
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Large Multi Table Live Tourney.

Blinds 2nd level, 100-200, me and other guy have same stacks of around 20k.
Im in the BB with A :diamonds: 3 :hearts: .
Villain limps in MP - first time he has limped, not got a great read on him yet.. he seems tightish and not that good of a player. He is followed by another limper. SB folds and I check.

Flop

A :hearts: 3 :diamonds: 8 :diamonds:

I bet out 500. Villain re-raises another 1200 on top. Other limper thinks for a second then folds.

Action is on me, what do you do? why?
(More to follow after some replies)
Nick S
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Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:51 pm
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The fact he's limped from MP suggests to me that he doesn't have a big A.. which is one of the few hands you are beating.

Could he limp with a small pair - a lot of people do hoping to catch a set on the flop so you can't rule out 88,33... i suppose it possible he has limped with the bullets looking for a back raise but i'd say it was very unlikely.

So is he bluffing, maybe he missed the flop and hopes to take the pot down.. or he's on a flush draw and he feels a good raise now will give him a free card on the river if he misses the turn...

Like you said tough hand - the rock in me says fold... but like your name you have outs..
Jon MW
The British Cowboy


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
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Location: Hastings

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:20 pm
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I'd have thought he was on an Ace-high card, or a pair.

Puts you ahead - not likely to catch a set if he has a pair, so I'd go for calling, keeping him in and trying to get more chips from him.

Although I can see how this play might backfire.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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Nick S
Straight


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:52 pm
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Jon MW wrote:
I'd have thought he was on an Ace-high card, or a pair.



Do you have him on Ace rag?
If he had AK or AQ i'm sure he would of riased pre-flop, it's a dangerous raise with a bad ace but i suppose he could be trying to find out where he is... i still think his hand is better than that.
Jon MW
The British Cowboy


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 1865
Location: Hastings

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:05 pm
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Nick S wrote:
Jon MW wrote:
I'd have thought he was on an Ace-high card, or a pair.



Do you have him on Ace rag?
If he had AK or AQ i'm sure he would of riased pre-flop, it's a dangerous raise with a bad ace but i suppose he could be trying to find out where he is... i still think his hand is better than that.


Based on limited information that is, if I was playing someone and the same situation came up I would have more of an idea. I'm usually a cautious player - but in this situation I think I'd be ahead.

Although ideas like this do have a tendency to bust me out on the bubble.

Very Happy
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

2010/11 UK Team Championships: Black Belt Poker Team Captain
5 Star HORSE Classics - 2007 Razz Champion
2007 WSOP Razz - 13/341
bunthorne
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:48 pm
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IveGotOuts wrote:
Large Multi Table Live Tourney.

Blinds 2nd level, 100-200, me and other guy have same stacks of around 20k.
Im in the BB with A :diamonds: 3 :hearts: .
Villain limps in MP - first time he has limped, not got a great read on him yet.. he seems tightish and not that good of a player. He is followed by another limper. SB folds and I check.

Flop

A :hearts: 3 :diamonds: 8 :diamonds:

I bet out 500. Villain re-raises another 1200 on top. Other limper thinks for a second then folds.

Action is on me, what do you do? why?
(More to follow after some replies)


I agree it is a tough one. He's got position on you and you haven't got much information on how he plays. But here's they way i would look at it.

What hands could he be holding that you are losing to? As you have the 3h it is highly unlikely that he has a set of 3s and so you have to discount this possibility - it is too remote. A limp from MP with 88 is perhaps as likely as a raise so that is possible. He might also have limped with A8 and be holding top two pair. If he had AA you would surely have expected him to raise. He could have been slowplaying AA preflop but if so it might be likely that he would continue to do so with his monster trips and merely call you in the hope of getting more chips off you and the other opponent, despite the possible straight and flush draws on the flop.

Other possible hands include A high kicker or a PP. Although raising with hands like AK, AQ or AJ is usual, players may be more likely to limp with these than with AA (some weak players have a fear of AK as they lose too often with it, largely because they misplay it!). A PP is also quite possible. No-one showed any strength before the flop so he may not believe that the A has helped you, despite you leading out, and if he has a PP he may think it is good.

In short, you might be winning or you might not. But you've got to find out.

After he reraises, there is 2300 in the pot and it costs you 1200 to call - you are getting almost 2/1 odds and you hand might be the best - and you can still improve to a full house or a backdoor flush. I wouldn't fold just yet. But I wouldn't call either as I'll be first to act on later streets. I would reraise to try and define the hand and pick the pot up there and then. If he calls I would check on the turn, unless I improved, and hope that my reraise might frighten him off betting and let me see the river for free. If he re-reraises, then I would dump the hand. Sure, it's cost me some more chips, but at least I won't lose any more on the hand as I now know that I'm beaten. If he has a PP or A high kicker, he will probably fold to the reraise.

This is just the way I'd play it.
The Sheriff
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Joined: 11 May 2006
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Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:32 am
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Personally i would find this a no-brainer (normally anyway)
and re-raise
1trying to take the pot down their and then
2 make money if he has an Ax
If he has got A8 33 88 well unlucky it is fine to say well i should have known but can u lay it down to a single re-raise would he re-raise with A10 Aj i think and i doubt he would with 33 88 also u would know where u are after u re-raise him.
Also what was the buy in ?? that would make a huge difference to my decision would be a huge laydown to some1 u dont really know
Although the fact that u have posted this makes me wonder if he had 33 88 AA A8 or if he had Ax and hit his 2 pair which is just unlucky

Well me being the Sheriff i would have to call to keep him honest just in case............. Very Happy
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The Sheriff
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:34 am
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You called him a villian so i think he sucked out on u
had he Aj and it J or limp with AA
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"If it wasn't for luck, I'd lose every time" The Sheriff
IveGotOuts
One Pair


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:30 pm
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Nick S wrote:
Like you said tough hand - the rock in me says fold...


The Sheriff wrote:
If he has got A8 33 88 well unlucky it is fine to say well i should have known but can u lay it down to a single re-raise


Folding was not an option for me at this stage, my hand is far too strong to fold to just a single re-raise.

I did what bunthorne suggested and made a pot-sized re-raise. He went all in and after some thought I folded.

Correct fold?

I re-raised because I felt it defined my hand and would allow me to find out then and there if I was beat. Which hopefully I was.
Was just wondering if there was a case for just flat calling his re-raise and playing the turn from there. Would I be able to get more information this way?
CarpeAnnum
Flush


Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 617

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:36 pm
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IveGotOuts wrote:
Large Multi Table Live Tourney.
Blinds 2nd level, 100-200, me and other guy have same stacks of around 20k.


What was the buy in and what is the average stack?
The Sheriff
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Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:41 pm
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Well i would have played it the same way from the information u have supplied but----- why would he go all in with AA 88 33??
if he felt u were drawing did he know u would lay it down to re-iterate my earlier point
what was the buy-in? makes a big difference standard wise u didnt rate him as good so i think i would have called tricky thought
did u find out what he had?
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IveGotOuts
One Pair


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:23 pm
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30 buy in. Our stacks were closer to 15k than 20k i apologise. Average stack will be 12k, starting stacks were 10k.

No Sheriff, he never told me what he had. He told me he didnt have a set though but obviously could have been a lie. A8 then?
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