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Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:33 pm
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Was playing in a tournament on Pokerstars the other day when I started thinking how helpful it would be if I could view Stats for other players as well as myself.

Wouldn't it be useful to have a program running along with PS which gathered information for you?

If you're playing more than one game its harder to observe playing styles. Some simple stats would be able to tell you which of the players on your table see lots of flops, which players rarely raise preflop, or which players frequently raise from the button for example.

I can understand why the cardrooms don't give you this kind of statistics.

Anyone have any opinions on whether such a program would be possible/feasible/useful?

Dylan
butch
Two Pair


Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:15 pm
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It certainly can't harm your game to have access to the sort of thing you describe. Quite how useful it would be is a matter for debate. I know that my stats change massivley between sessions due to good/bad runs of cards so you probably need a lot more hands than you would get from one tournament to give you enough confidence that they are meaningful.

On a related topic, I came across pokerinspector for the first time recently which is the first program I have seen that 'plugs in' to the stars software and shows you stats about your hand in real time. Whilst it does simple things like telling you your hand, the best possible hand, and the odds of you improving to flush, trips, 2 pair etc, it stops short of telling you your EV of calling with the flush draw etc.

If a plug in existed (or maybe it already does?, I only played with the demo version) that would flash up and tell you that calling with your draw had a negative EV of $15 or whatever, I wonder if it would stop the looser players from making those calls. That would equal less profit for the rest of us.

If it became common place, it could have a big effect on the profitability of online games.
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:49 pm
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It's the first time I've heard of a program like this. Think I'll have a look at it.

I'd agree with you that it might make playing online less profitable for good players if bad players had a program telling them whether they were getting odds to call.

On the other hand, I'd contend that most bad calls are made because of indiscipline rather than ignorance of odds. I know when I make a dodgy call, it's usually not because I don't know the odds, it'll be because I'm on tilt or I'm bored, or I'd really like to draw out on some player, or I haven't seen a turn-card in an hour or something stupid like that. Having a program telling me the EV wouldn't eliminate this from my game, and I'd imagine the same would be true for others.

The kind of program I was thinking of would collect stats about behaviour of others.

Say I'm playing two tables and one pops up suddenly, I've got J-J and someone's made a raise to my right. Because I'm playing two tables I can't remember how this player plays. Say I had a program that told me this guy only sees 8% of flops and only raises preflop 3% of hands. Now I have a much clearer idea what to do with my hand.

That kind of program would definitely save me money.


--Previous Message--

:
: It certainly can't harm your game to have access to the sort of thing you
: describe. Quite how useful it would be is a matter for debate. I know that my
: stats change massivley between sessions due to good/bad runs of cards so you
: probably need a lot more hands than you would get from one tournament to give
: you enough confidence that they are meaningful.
:
: On a related topic, I came across pokerinspector for the first time recently
: which is the first program I have seen that 'plugs in' to the stars software and
: shows you stats about your hand in real time. Whilst it does simple things like
: telling you your hand, the best possible hand, and the odds of you improving to
: flush, trips, 2 pair etc, it stops short of telling you your EV of calling with
: the flush draw etc.
:
: If a plug in existed (or maybe it already does?, I only played with the demo
: version) that would flash up and tell you that calling with your draw had a
: negative EV of $15 or whatever, I wonder if it would stop the looser players
: from making those calls. That would equal less profit for the rest of us.
:

(...)
butch
Two Pair


Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:19 pm
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'most bad calls are made because of indiscipline rather than ignorance of odds'

I agree, which is why I think a big red flashing warning window that says you are about to make a poor play if you call will produce much more disciplined players.

I have also been known to justify some dodgy calls by saying the words 'implied odds' over and over again in my head. Would a program that could tell me the likley implied odds based on assumptions provided from monitoring the players stats as you suggest make a difference to my play? I think it would.

These programs are probably just round the corner and may even be here already where players have written them themselves.

Back to your original question about knowing the other players stats. How many hands do you think you'd need to monitor before they became a reliable indicator? 100? 1000? 10000?

I have no idea, but some stats boffin should be able to tell us...
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:11 pm
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After about 100 hands in a tournament on PS my % of flops will usually tend to about 15% give or take 2-3%. I think its possible for a sample as small as this to provide useful information.

I accept the need for caution when making judgements on results from such small samples. And large samples (10,000) are difficult to obtain in a tournament situation (except maybe if it's one my dodgy blinds structures), so if such a program did exist it would have serious limitations. I'd love to have it though.

Dylan


--Previous Message--

:
: 'most bad calls are made because of indiscipline rather than ignorance of
: odds'
:
: I agree, which is why I think a big red flashing warning window that says you
: are about to make a poor play if you call will produce much more disciplined
: players.
:
: I have also been known to justify some dodgy calls by saying the words
: 'implied odds' over and over again in my head. Would a program that could tell
: me the likley implied odds based on assumptions provided from monitoring the
: players stats as you suggest make a difference to my play? I think it would.
:
: These programs are probably just round the corner and may even be here already
: where players have written them themselves.
:
: Back to your original question about knowing the other players stats. How many
: hands do you think you'd need to monitor before they became a reliable
: indicator? 100? 1000? 10000?

(...)
Rickfish
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:36 am
Reply with quote
Have a look at Poker Tracker.
PeterB
Flush


Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:04 am
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I can back Rick here. I have used Pokertracker for nine months. It does not use a "screenscrape" method; you have to download hand histories and import them. However, it provides a wealth of detail on other players -- so much, that you have to balance the time you could spend analysing how they play with the time that you could be spending at the poker table.

It is also very useful for analysing how YOU play. I rejigged my strategy in the small and big blinds as a result of looking at past records. I also noted that for some reason I was winning far less on the button than I was in the two seats before the button. I concluded that this was because I was "seeing cheap flops" with hands such as K8 suited, which I would throw away in any earlier position. I was also getting far fewer opportunities to be the first in with a raise, and, if I WAS first in with a raise, I was far more likely to be called by one of the blinds on the grounds that I might be stealing.

As for the number of hands needed to judge an opponent, I reckon to put a tentative mark against a player after 30 hands or so and a fairly reliable mark against him after 100.

I could give more details about the help that Pokertracker can be (it can also be used in tournaments, but I haven't really found these as much use), but I guess I ought to do some work.

Most poker players don't have the patience for this kind of analysis anyway, because they are just in it for the excitement and are, by their nature, quick to boredom.

Pete



--Previous Message--

: Have a look at Poker Tracker.
steveyboy
Straight


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:03 pm
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I have just been reading about a poker program that was launched in october 2002 which did a similar thing to you suggested (at least i think it did). The program was called 'Scoop Monster' and was designed to work with the True Poker client to tell players the odds of them winning the current hand and advise them how to proceed. The program could actually be set to automatically play hands for you.

In the end the the Scoop Monster was taken off the market as True Poker took measures to change their software so it wouldnt work and ban anyone found to be using it.


Im not sure how good the program was but it does raise the question can computers beat human players and if so why do i spend so long playing poker online?

Steveyboy
--Previous Message--

: It's the first time I've heard of a program like this. Think I'll have a look
: at it.
:
: I'd agree with you that it might make playing online less profitable for good
: players if bad players had a program telling them whether they were getting odds
: to call.
:
: On the other hand, I'd contend that most bad calls are made because of
: indiscipline rather than ignorance of odds. I know when I make a dodgy call,
: it's usually not because I don't know the odds, it'll be because I'm on tilt or
: I'm bored, or I'd really like to draw out on some player, or I haven't seen a
: turn-card in an hour or something stupid like that. Having a program telling me
: the EV wouldn't eliminate this from my game, and I'd imagine the same would be
: true for others.
:
: The kind of program I was thinking of would collect stats about behaviour of
: others.
:
: Say I'm playing two tables and one pops up suddenly, I've got J-J and

(...)
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