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NickSilas
High Card


Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:15 pm
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Hello everyone.

I would be very grateful if someone could help me and tell me if the ruling I got last Sunday playing a live tournament, was correct or not. It was a very unfortunate incident.

The situation: 18 players left, blinds 12,000-24,000. I was the third biggest stack at the table with 255,000 chips but there were no big gaps between the other 8 players . (chip leader: 300k aprox, short stack:190k).

The action preflop was as follows: the guy UTG called and the the next 2 players fold, then the guy in the 6th seat makes a raise to 74K, Im next to him and when I look at my cards and see my pocket Kings, I put some chips on top of my cards, and thought I had to re-raise and maybe end everything there, so I piled up my chips and said loudly: I RE RAISE TO 174 THOUSAND. And pushed the 174k stack to the front of the table.

Unfortunately both of my cards were pressed below the tower of chips I moved to the front, and they moved with the stack to the front as I pushed. Inmediately the player who made the raise to 74K said my hand was dead, and the dealer said it was dead indeed.
I called the supervisor,I told him to look at my cards (which he did) and after a 15-minutes argument, he said my hand was dead and my 174k chips had to stay in the pot. The players in my table were silent but 2 of them said it was a good ruling ( of coursethey want to eliminate a player).
The player in the 6th seat had pocket 9s. I was left with 80K chips but was so angry I left the table .

I want to learn and move on. Was my hand dead indeed or was it a bad ruling?

Thanks in advance.
bergeroo
Flush


Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 550

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:39 pm
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pub game or casino?

Clearly this is a ridic ruling! For your hand to be dead and money to stay in.

Excatly how far did you slide out the chips and cards in front of you? I presume the cards did not go in the much in any way?

It is all about intention, clearly you didn't intend to fold and you stated your bet.

I have no idea why you slid your cards out in the middle of the table, surely you realised this was a bad idea? Lesson learned for you I guess but it was a bad ruling.

Btw if you have verbally stated your bet there is no need to slide your chips. You can just pick them up and put them in bit by bit. Can't be a string bet as you already said the amount.
bergeroo
Flush


Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 550

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:40 pm
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On a side note, your bet size is really transparent that you have a big hand. You should just go all in if you are going to raise
NickSilas
High Card


Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:39 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
pub game or casino?

Clearly this is a ridic ruling! For your hand to be dead and money to stay in.

Excatly how far did you slide out the chips and cards in front of you? I presume the cards did not go in the much in any way?

It is all about intention, clearly you didn't intend to fold and you stated your bet.

I have no idea why you slid your cards out in the middle of the table, surely you realised this was a bad idea? Lesson learned for you I guess but it was a bad ruling.

Btw if you have verbally stated your bet there is no need to slide your chips. You can just pick them up and put them in bit by bit. Can't be a string bet as you already said the amount.


Hi bergeroo.

First of all, thanks for taking the time reply. The tournament was in a casino, but you asking if it was in a pub makes perfect sense because of the horrible ruling.

The cards did not go into the muck at all!! I did not want to slide the cards, but my english is far from good and I might not be explaining the action corrrectly.

I did not realise that my cards were sliding under the pile of chips I announced loudly the re-raise to 174k and inmediatelyI slid the chips right into the front (maybe 10 inches) and released it, that's when the other player said my hand was dead and I noticed my cards under the 174k stack.

I know I did not need to slide my chips if I announced the re raise verbally, but I just kinda did it almost at the same time. No big deal and no string bet posibility, I think. And yes, It's all about intention.

Even being 90% sure the ruling was stupid, Ive looked all over the internet to see if maybe I was wrong. I'm thinking of going back to the casino and speak to the manager to see if I can get my money back or something.

Thanks.
NickSilas
High Card


Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:18 pm
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Regarding how I played the Kings, I guess if I had gone All in, my hand wouldnt have been declared dead. But that's not the point I guess.

I will post the Casino's Manager answer. I am def. going there tomorrow.
bergeroo
Flush


Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 550

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:09 am
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name and shame the casino! The ruling is awful

I don't think you will get any money back, especially as you left when you still had chips left. gl though
The Reverend
In Rhythm


Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 6193
Location: In Rhythm

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:57 pm
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If you want to learn and move on, learn to protect your hand. Ruling is terrible obviously, there is no scope for you gaining advantage doing what you're doing, but give a TD a chance to make a bad ruling and they usually will.
wwwired
High Card


Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:29 pm
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Roberts Rules states:

"A verbal statement in turn denotes your action, is binding, and takes precedence over a differing physical action."

The TDA rules state:

"Players must act in turn. Verbal betting declarations in turn are binding.

Since it sounds like your cards were identifiable the TD/Floor-Staff might have determined if the card movement was accidental and ruled on the status of your verbal action.

Unfortunately, Floor Decisions are final, as correct as they may be.
Jim Manlove
High Card


Joined: 03 Jan 2015
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:16 pm
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I have seen several incidents, in casinos, where very sticky chips have lead to accidents, although never this particular situation.
In that spot, I would have referred the floor to this rule in the TDA. It's basically rule number 1.
"Floorpeople must consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priorities in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules."
I would have pointed out that the chips stuck to the cards because they were sticky due to being overdue a wash. I played in a top London casino yesterday that had this problem, so its not just grubby little card rooms that suffer from this. It's mainly caused by people eating at the table, with their fingers...
It's a long shot but making the casino seem responsible for the error gives the floor person the opportunity to alleviate the player, in the best interest of the game.
Don't underestimate the value of "intention" in any poker situation.

I would also say that any player that intends to play at a level where payouts can exceed four figures should have a good knowledge of an official set of rules. This is a good example of where a TD will listen to your argument if they believe you know what you are talking about, rather than just defending your position.
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