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ReggieK
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:28 pm
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Don't forget Monty, he was our 3rd best batsman in the first innings Mr. Green
the shiver
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:32 pm
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I just fear serious embarrasment if we dont bowl first in Perth
#adiosashes
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penko910
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:34 am
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Got to be honest, thought this would be a tough series but never seen us being so far behind at this stage! Aussies are acting like they are world beaters but I think we've handed it to them, we've been awful!

Next test obviously won't go with 2 spinners, I wouldn't automatically drop Monty either as Swann hasn't really justified his position as no1 spinner. I'd give Finn a go on a fast bouncey pitch in Perth. We need to have pace in the attack!

Either Bairstow or Balance in for Stokes, I like Bairstow but I know he's not really done the business so far in his career.
tjm8
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:10 pm
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Yeah, I would be tempted to go with Monty as Swann has not bowled well at all.

If they play Monty though, I bet they go with Bresnan as he is useful with the bat and it would mean Anderson batting at 9, if they go with Finn (Finn 10, Monty 11). If any wicket is going to suit Finn (or Rankin), it is Perth, so they will probably stick with Swann for his potential batting ability and he is also a top fielder (unlike Monty).

Stokes isn't ready to bat 6 yet, so would put Balance in.

I would also enforce a rule that if any England batsman plays the hook shot (whether it goes for 4, 6 or gets them out), until they have been at the crease for at least 3 hours, they get a fine. Plain stupidity to be hooking when the Aussies have 2 fielders in the deep waiting for it.
ReggieK
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:24 pm
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Bye bye Ashes
Bye bye several senior players also..
the shiver
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:52 pm
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Just cant figure out how such a shambolic swing of organisation, passion, hunger, technique can occur in 6 months
One commentator commented that it looks like England are playing on a different wicket in each test to Australia...so true
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It was one of the privileges of my poker life to watch Barny win his bracelet, putting on a master class in front of an audience who would have run onto the stage and carried him over the ****ing line if thats what it was going to take. There is bracelets and there is bracelets. This was one of the very special ones...Padraig Parkinson
Indestructible
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:50 pm
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Just so glad that due to the time of day it us on I haven't watched any of it.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:28 am
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I was having a conversation with a bloke in a pub a few days ago who said that our backs were against the wall in this series and indicated that all was not lost.......I told him he was having a laugh as for me this series was dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No way that with the margins of victory and the momentum that Australia had with home advantage that this was going to be anything other than a series win for them. I thought we were in trouble after the first test. I agree that this Aussie side are not even close to a great side and we have just rolled over and haven't turned up......I think we will seriously struggle to avoid 5-0.

What is it with England sides.......when they are bad they can be absolutely dire and especially away from home. I thought the 3-0 score in the summer flattered us to be honest but I never expected this. I thought we were capable of losing the Ashes in this series but not in this way. The entire structure needs to take a long hard look at itself with regards to England although I don't think that playing two Ashes series so close together was a definite plus either.
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DropTheHammer
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:41 am
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The problem was just what Cook said-too many players out of form at the same time. That's it. There's no need to panic or shake everything up. There's still world class players in our team, but they shouldn't be afraid to drop them if they're out if form.
tjm8
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:05 pm
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DropTheHammer wrote:
The problem was just what Cook said-too many players out of form at the same time. That's it. There's no need to panic or shake everything up. There's still world class players in our team, but they shouldn't be afraid to drop them if they're out if form.


Well said, plenty of the guys have been proven world class players and it's a bit galling to hear some of the slagging off they have received from some quarters of the media.

For me, it also looks like the team have under estimated the Aussies and from Day 2 of the first test, they have been guilty of some real poor on field decisions and once the Aussies built up some confidence, England just couldn't recover.
The Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:39 am
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tjm8 wrote:
DropTheHammer wrote:
The problem was just what Cook said-too many players out of form at the same time. That's it. There's no need to panic or shake everything up. There's still world class players in our team, but they shouldn't be afraid to drop them if they're out if form.


Well said, plenty of the guys have been proven world class players and it's a bit galling to hear some of the slagging off they have received from some quarters of the media.

For me, it also looks like the team have under estimated the Aussies and from Day 2 of the first test, they have been guilty of some real poor on field decisions and once the Aussies built up some confidence, England just couldn't recover.




Don't agree......the players got hammered in the press and rightly so.....JUSTIFIED!!!! Saying that players were "out of form" is stating the Fooking obvious......the big question is why were these supposed world class players all out of form at the same time......the results were so bad that it is more than just a form issue. Heads will role after this series and especially if it is 5-0, it will all happen behind the scenes as to what the real reasons are but these performances have been so poor England have looked like Zimbabwe.

Also basing crap performances on some supposed "world class" players being out of form is a cop out. TRUE world class players in any sport do not under perform to this level and being world class once doesn't make you automatically world class all the time. Being out of form and digging results out is what true world class performers do......IN ANY SPORT. When Ronnie O'Sullivan is out of form he isn't getting beaten 9-0 and when Chelsea have a bad season they don't finish 12th in the league.
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tjm8
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:34 pm
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Ok firstly I am as dismayed as anyone that we have been hammered by the Aussies, but sport has a habit of kicking you in the balls at times. The central contract system has been very successful for England since it was introduced, there was a time when we were looking like Zimbabwe (or worse, when they were beating us!!).

England used to be a laughing stock at Cricket, but have beaten all the best sides in the last decade and have even been competitive on the Asia tours (even when losing), something we hardly ever achieved.

Plus it is only 3 tests that we have lost in a one month, hardly conclusive proof that English cricket is on its arse.

As for your examples, I remember O'Sullivan been hammered a few times when his mind wasn't right, I have also witnessed plenty of other shocks. World Class performers will always have the odd blips, but what makes them world class is that their blips are only occasional. If sport was predictable, it would be very boring. I repeat though, this is only 3 test matches, so asking for heads to roll is just OTT

Cricket is a team game and you need approximately 7 of your players to play well to be competitive at test match level. We have too many top class players to write them off so quickly and I think it could just be a simple case of one tough test series too many and that they need a break.

If we look player by player, I would make the following comments: -

Cook - his first real bad series and his shot selection has been questionable, but I would still rate him as one of the best openers in the world.

Carberry - deserved a chance based on his performance at county level and there is a spot which needs filling. Personally I don't think he is the right man and wouldn't of been my selection, but he certainly wasn't a poor choice.

Trott - big loss to the team, he was averaging over 60 at 3 for ages and losing him was always going to hurt. Hope he gets back to the top.

KP - such a talent, but don't think he is in the right place at the moment. Possibly missing his family as he has seen troubled (lots of people don't give allowances for how tough it is to be away from your family for such long periods, yes they are well paid top sportsman and it is their chosen profession, but it isn't always hotels and glamour) .

Bell - not has best series, but still a real talent and bound to come back strong in the future

Root - a real talent for the future, let him carry on developing

Prior - less than a year ago, he was playing the best cricket of his career, is he past his best? maybe, but I am not going to write him off just yet.

Stokes - a fantastic hundred in the last test, maybe that innings will give him the confidence to cement a place in the team and be the Andy Flintoff for the future, which gives us 5 frontline bowlers and a better balance. England have got away with it for a while tbf (by having a 4 man attack who constantly took 20 wkts in a test).

Broad - he is top class and will be a top bowler for many years to come

Swann - has struggled, but the pitches have been deliberately prepared not to suit him, plus the Aussies have gone for a battling line up containing mostly right handers (limiting his effectiveness a bit)

Bresnan - not fit and I don't think it was right to bring him back so soon, bit of a panic selection IMO

Anderson - a brilliant world class bowler, not had his best series, but also the Aussies have played him very carefully and looked to be see him off, before attacking the change bowlers.

Panesar - shame his batting and fielding is so dire, but he is still a threat with the bowl.

That team above is still going to be very competitive, yes a few are getting towards the end of their careers and we need to introduce some new blood, but the current system found all of the above players, so I am confident it will find the next group of players.

There really is no need to panic or for knee jerk reactions, lets see how they react in the next 2 tests and early part of next year.

Let's also not forget that Andy Flower has had a difficult time recently, so I am not keen to jump on the bandwagon.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:45 am
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Quote:
[quote="tjm8"]

Plus it is only 3 tests that we have lost in a one month, hardly conclusive proof that English cricket is on its arse.

As for your examples, I remember O'Sullivan been hammered a few times when his mind wasn't right, I have also witnessed plenty of other shocks. World Class performers will always have the odd blips, but what makes them world class is that their blips are only occasional. If sport was predictable, it would be very boring. I repeat though, this is only 3 test matches, so asking for heads to roll is just




I never said that English cricket is on its arse but there is something clearly wrong with this test team. Obv WC performers have blips but this is more than a blip. Of course we will bounce back but we will do so after things have been shaken up behind the scenes. Do you really want to wait until we have had a bad record over 20 tests until you get your "conclusive proof". These are not NORMAL test match results we are looking at here so lets not forget that. Not all 3-0 scorelines are the same. Something is seriously amiss with the England set up. It is either a lack of proper planning or players mindsets not being right or a combination of things.

Maybe the O'Sullivan analogy was skewed because getting hammered in a snooker match doesn't compare remotely to getting hammered in 3 consecutive 5 day tests. There is one thing that ALL world class performers do that is absolutely nailed on......they don't just assume that a few bad results are just "one of those things" with serious self analysis. I didn't say there was anything wrong with English cricket but there is something seriously wrong with this team.......what......we don't yet know. If you only ever assume bad results to be nothing but fluctuation then what you are doing is sowing the seeds for potential future hammerings and that is terribly unprofessional.

Anyway.....just have to agree to disagree

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tjm8
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:49 pm
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I don't think we are disagreeing over the majority of aspects, I agree that the teams performance are down to other factors than just using a simple analogy of too many players being out of form. I've made a few posts on this thread citing a few opinions: -

* Was the preparation for the tour correct ? For me this is the toughest one, ideally you want a few tour games to get used to the conditions and climate, but the players also needed a break after the summer - so tough to get the balance right.
* Is it just one test series too many after a long hard slog of hard cricket (they just don't seem to get many breaks these days)?
Losing Trott is a big worry: is the challenge of top level cricket over 3 forms of cricket maybe too much for a long sustained period and players need to be rotated more ?
* England beat the Aussies 3-0 in the summer and whilst it looks an easy win on paper, in reality is was much closer and the fighting spirit of England got them over the line. Was this the first sign that a few of our top class players were starting to slow down, maybe as father time catches up on everyone at some point.
* Team selection, where are our tall fast bowlers who are most likely to get the most out of the Aussies wickets?
* Shot selection, we have gone on the attack in the past to get ourselves out of trouble, but when you see too many of your team mates succumbing to the same shot, at some point you need to have a rethink.

For me though, all of the above are just aspects of the game, which you should always be concentrating on and striving to improve. There is no way the England Management are sitting back thinking "oh the players will get their form back and everything will be ok", but also they won't be panicking that major changes are needed to the system.

The system has been successful, but as everyone knows, you constantly tweak & fine tune the system to hopefully stay one step in front of the others. I am just more relaxed over the issue than perhaps you are mate Very Happy

It is possible, we are going experience a quiet spell, as we wait for the next batch of cricketers to gain experience at the highest level. I do have a concern that around half of the team will be retiring in a relative short space of team, the Aussies were badly hit when they lost Hayden, Langer, Pointing, Hussey, Martyn, Gilchrist, Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, Lee (and some decent back up others of that age) in about a 2-3 year period.

Anyway let the Aussies think they are back at the top now, as they will get a fearful reminder that they are not that great once they get whooped by South Africa early next year. England just haven't performed, but come the next ashes, we will get it the urn back Very Happy

England can freshen up the team ready for the one day internationals after the test series, go and win in the West Indies and have a great competitive series vs. India next summer.

Cricket England will be fine Wink
penko910
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:47 pm
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Graeme Swann has just announced his retirement with immediate effect! Neutral
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