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Chris_Austin
Straight


Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:00 am
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You are called over to a table and when you get there, see two players all-in. QQ vs AJ. The board reads J34 J 6 but there are only 2 burn cards. The players and the player/dealer all agree that there was a burn card for the flop (because that's when all the money went in) but no-one is sure whether there was a burn card missed on the turn or on the river. God knows how, I think the players were only paying attention to the cards in front of them.

How would you resolve the situation and why?
Daniel
Straight


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:57 am
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Shoot the dealer, and possibly the prat that noticed there were only 2 burn cards, but was unable to say wether it was missed on the turn or river......... Twisted Evil

Two options I think. Pick up the 2nd Jack and the 6, reshuffel the deck and re-deal the turn and river with burn cards this time!

OR, it seems likely that the 6 is the missing burn card, players would probably notice if the turn card had not been burned first, but since the turn was a big 'game changer', everyone probably missed the dealer not burning and turning the river properly. So put the 6 in the burn, and turn the next card to see if the QQ hits their 2 outer, or the AJ stays Lucky.

Can't see anyone being too happy here, the QQ would want the turn and river redone, and there is no way the AJ wants the turn card changed.

If the Jack on the turn was supposed to be the burn card, that means that the 2nd burn card is the turn, and the 6 is the last burn before dealing the river. I think thats too complicated, and picking up the Jack and putting it back in the deck, is too harsh considering the most likely outcome was that the river burn was missed.

I think something similar happened in a poker film, 'Lucky you'. Satalite for the main event and the dealer forgets to burn before the river. Hero ends up losing to a Lucky 2 outer on the river, after thinking he had won. But the river card was put on the board, and its impossible to prove which burn was missed, (assuming it was real events and you can't just re-wind........). The TD there orders the river card be put in the burn/muck, going on the word of the other player, and and deals a new river.
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Barny
Mobster


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 1136

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:32 am
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Headache.

I'm gonna keep my powder dry on this one as we'll probably include it in the next YATTD.
I like writing the verdict after seeing what all the TDs say!
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MFCMark00
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Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:38 pm
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If you can't determine which street didn't have a burn card I don't see how you can change the board.

At the end of the day the turn and river were random cards, maybe it's an online generation thing to not see the huge fuss about the 'correct' random card being dealt.
knifeboy62
Quads


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: Bristol

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:38 pm
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I don't think you can make any assumption about where the second burn card was missed in the absence of any evidence. Given that, I would probably reshuffle the remaining deck and run the board out again afresh.

Only other option I could see would be to expose the second burn card then work out what the combos could have been and award fractions of the pot for each possible run-out, equivalent to running it twice.

x and y are burn cards, ABCDE(F) are the exposed cards and (first card from remainder of deck)

Possible boards:
ABCDF (E is third burn card)
ABCEF (D is second burn card)

Award 50% of pot to each combo.
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WotaWaster
One Pair


Joined: 03 Aug 2013
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:15 pm
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If people accepted the cards as they were dealt i think it is a bit late to start messing about after the 5 cards are there and nobody is sure exactly which burn card was missed. At the end of the day they are all random cards anyway.

In reality it depends whether the guy with AJ or the QQ gets on better with the dealing staff i suppose Smile
Welshman
Full House


Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 751
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:28 pm
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WotaWaster wrote:
In reality it depends whether the guy with AJ or the QQ gets on better with the dealing staff i suppose Smile


We have a winner.
Pizzicato
Straight Flush


Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 3266

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:35 am
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Its pretty vomit but I would be returning the J, 6 and second burn card to the deck and re running turn and river...
Chris_Austin
Straight


Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:15 pm
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Like Daniel said, it seems likely that everything was done correctly until the 2nd Jack hits and then everybody starts making noise and the dealer forgets to burn and nobody notices straight away.

There is no way for me to be sure but I could at least be sure that whichever burn card was missed, the river hadn't actually been dealt yet (either way you do it, the 6 would be the river burn). I'd hoped, through some miracle, that the river would be an A, J or Q and sort the situation out. It was a Q, giving QQ top set and winning regardless of the correct turn card. The burn cards were a 3, 4 and 7 so I was happy that there could be no doubt QQ would have been the winning hand and awarded him the pot.

For future situations, I think i'd go with dealing the correct river and then reshuffling the deck (with the J) and dealing a fresh turn card. Running it twice or three times etc is a interesting idea but not all players would understand this and how could you decide how many times it would be run?

Some players suggested splitting the pot but I was against doing this as it favoured the AJ massively. Unless you could base the split on equity after the flop?
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