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MM
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:52 pm
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A new article has been published on the website:

Small raise or open shove from the button? by Alex Rousso
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:07 pm
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Firstly I enjoyed this article but I think it is pretty old?

Secondly, how about open limping the button?
Matt101
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:21 am
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Quote:
So with a hand as strong as Q9s its not a question of whether to raise or not, but whether to raise/fold or raise/call. By this I mean that Q9s is strong enough in this situation so that, as long as I make the correct choice between raise/fold and raise/call, the move is always +EV something which would not be true, say, of 72o.


Not sure I get this argument. If you've decided you're raise-folding what does it matter what hand you have? I can see that two possible benefits of raise-folding with Q9s over 72o are post-flop playability in the case of a call, and blockers to some of your opponents' shoving ranges, but I'm not sure whether that's what you're getting at or if there's something I'm missing.

FTR I'm either raise-calling or open shoving, probably the latter.
Alex B
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:52 am
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If the table is too loose-aggressive, isn't that an ICM advantage which might suggest playing super-tight except for good raise-call hands?

At least for a few more rounds, until you get a more natural shoving stack, or unless you can 3-bet shove into raise-folders.
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:47 am
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Raise calling for your tournament life in this spot is pretty awful. Much prefer to just open fold if you are planning to raise fold.
darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:05 pm
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given the table dynamics as a few have said before i think this is a clear open fold.
I don't see the relevance of your hand in this scenario and i would be interested what range you are raise calling vs such a table. It seems a long way to go in a tournament to engineer a 'hope i have live cards' scenario.
Matt101
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:46 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
Raise calling for your tournament life in this spot is pretty awful. Much prefer to just open fold if you are planning to raise fold.


Yeah I agree with this tbh. I wouldn't be raise calling, I just had in my head about the article saying it's always correct to raise here, and raise-calling is marginally better than raise-folding with a mid-range hand against two blinds with a wide shoving range imo.

Pretty sure I'd almost always be open shoving here unless I thought the blinds would call me super light, in which case open fold. Raise-call stronger hands and raise-fold occasional junk. Maybe raise-fold Q9s with nits in the blind.
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:10 am
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But how about open limping?!?!?!?!
Matt101
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:37 am
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bergeroo wrote:
But how about open limping?!?!?!?!


Not something I've ever really considered but I suppose it's an alternative to open folding. Is it something you've ever done? What's your plan v a 3x raise?
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:46 am
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I've started mixing some open limping from late position in circumstances like this. If I'm doing it then I'm doing if with big pairs occasionally aswell as other pairs and connectors and AK. Just hate raise folding, limp folding pains me less, it's also sometimes fun to limp shove.

I guess in this spot if you limp, you prob call a 3x and get it in with any pair any draw. Not much room to play but you've got to play some poker I suppose. You have a nice stack to raise all in over a half pot c bet on the flop.
Matt101
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:14 am
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Yeah raise folding sucks. Not sure I like the idea of limp-calling though. I doubt you hit enough flops hard enough to make it profitable with this stack size.
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:46 am
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yeah Marcus I don't really love any option here so I might just fold, but the hand is so pretty! I dunno, I'm just trying to think outside the box a bit to a situation that actually has more than the two choices presented.
pickleman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:25 pm
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Thanks for the replies everyone.

Bergeroo - My Pickleman articles always appear first in Bluff Europe, and then are put up on Hendon Mob a couple of months after that, so you may have seen it in Bluff.

I agree that there are certain stack sizes and against certain (usually aggressive) opponents where open limping can be preferable to open raising. As you say, you'll have to mix it up by open limping some premium hands too. However, I think this stack size is a bit too short for that strategy. If you open limp, it has to be with a view to calling a raise or reshoving. We're too short here to limp/call and the reshove must be for value given the odds we'd give our opponent, so by extension we can't limp/reshove as a semi-bluff, which means our open-limp range can't be balanced with this stack size.

The calculations I've made ignore ICM. The table shows that up to both opponents having a shove range on us of (averaged between the two of them) 30%, it's profitable to raise/fold. I must say I found this surprising. Secondly, if they are shoving wider than that - it's theoretically profitable for me to raise/call. That was my point about it always being +EV: assuming I knew (somehow Angel ) what their shove range was, I'd always be making a +EV move by open raising.

{Matt101: in answer to your first question - this logic would not follow for 72o because even with a really wide opp shove range, you shouldn't call with 72o)

This doesn't mean, of course, that open raising is the best move. As I conclude in the article, open shoving is probably better, and certainly is less of a headache.

I've claimed in the article that ICM pushes it further in favour of open shove. However, in the modern game we are much more likely to be called light (especially by aggressive players). In which case, I agree with Alex B (and others) that open folding might be better. Bear in mind that we're always going to have these two behind us, however, so we'll have to make a move eventually.

Bit of tricky spot really.
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bergeroo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:19 am
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Alex, yeah I guess that's where I saw it.

Tricky spot indeed.

Thanks for the article, it made me think!
luc boeckx
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:35 pm
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i think these analysis can be exact for cash games,remember in a tournament you can die only once.If you always think about percentage you have to be lucky in every tournament you play.In a tournament it is not important if you have 20 BB or 12 BB,important is your position,the other players and your image at the table.even with 15 BB i would raise like 3 or 4 times the BB,and i even fold when iwas bluffing with rags.Try to let LAGs fold early in the tournament or beat them a few times with ABC poker,so they think you are supertight,so they dont shove with A3o:-)
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