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Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:31 pm
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What would you have done if you were at that table with the two brothers as I described? Please spare me the sanctimonious answer here.

Do you not see that there is a varying degree of gravity between avoiding confrontation with a brother/friend and implicitly colluding with a group of mates to knock somebody out?

Do you think both breaches should result in disqualification?



--Previous Message--

:
:
: I just hope I'm never on a table with you and your friends!
:
redsimon
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:32 pm
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Never seen this enforced on ultimatebet tho..

: It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites (ultimate
: bet for example).
:
:
: Dylan


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2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

redsimon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:41 pm
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Well, the Dublin example I would have called for the floor and asked to see the bb's hole cards as this was borderline chip dumping/soft play...

You must be a philosophy student as you don't see cheating when it occurs and dont consider driving at 51 mph in a 50 mph zone speeding Smile

(Thats me being ironic not sactimoniuos Smile)

--Previous Message--

: What would you have done if you were at that table with the two brothers as I
: described? Please spare me the sanctimonious answer here.
:
: Do you not see that there is a varying degree of gravity between avoiding
: confrontation with a brother/friend and implicitly colluding with a group of
: mates to knock somebody out?
:
: Do you think both breaches should result in disqualification?
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: :
: :
: : I just hope I'm never on a table with you and your friends!
: :
_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:41 pm
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That is exactly the point.

Similarly you've probably never seen somebody disqualified from a tournament for the kind of benign 'friendly play' that I'm talking about.

It happens all the time, it would be impossible to enforce a strict rule against it, most people don't mind it, even though it is unprofessional.


--Previous Message--

: Never seen this enforced on ultimatebet tho..
:
: : It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites (ultimate
: : bet for example).
: :
: :
: : Dylan
:
redsimon
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:49 pm
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It doesn't happen "all the time", it can be stopped, it is against the rules,people do mind it, and professionalism doesn't come into it...apart from that I agree with you Smile



--Previous Message--

:
: That is exactly the point.
:
: Similarly you've probably never seen somebody disqualified from a tournament
: for the kind of benign 'friendly play' that I'm talking about.
:
: It happens all the time, it would be impossible to enforce a strict rule
: against it, most people don't mind it, even though it is unprofessional.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : Never seen this enforced on ultimatebet tho..
: :
: : : It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites
: (ultimate
: : : bet for example).
: : :
: : :
: : : Dylan
: :


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:57 pm
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Starting to wish I hadn't started this but I feel foolishly compelled to defend myself...

Anyway, thanks for taking my speeding thing out of context, useful tool of argument that.

What I meant was that avoiding confrontations with a friend at a poker table is as much cheating as is driving at 51mph in 50 zone. But just like a judge would consider doing 90mph in a 50 zone different from doing 51mph, so should what I called benign soft playing be considered a completely different breach than group collusive behaviour.

I know what your saying redsimon, I definitely don't like the feeling of playing against the home team at a final table, that's not what I'm talking about.


--Previous Message--

: Well, the Dublin example I would have called for the floor and asked to see
: the bb's hole cards as this was borderline chip dumping/soft play...
:
: You must be a philosophy student as you don't see cheating when it occurs and
: dont consider driving at 51 mph in a 50 mph zone speeding Smile
:
: (Thats me being ironic not sactimoniuos Smile)
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : What would you have done if you were at that table with the two brothers as
: I
: : described? Please spare me the sanctimonious answer here.
: :
: : Do you not see that there is a varying degree of gravity between avoiding
: : confrontation with a brother/friend and implicitly colluding with a group
: of
: : mates to knock somebody out?
: :
: : Do you think both breaches should result in disqualification?
: :
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : :
: : :
: : : I just hope I'm never on a table with you and your friends!
: : :
Dylan
Trips


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:00 pm
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How many times have you seen some old bloke play differently against a woman player, maybe trying to chat her up on the side. This is the same level of cheating. What rule would this fall under? How would you go about enforcing it? Would you want to bother?

--Previous Message--

: It doesn't happen "all the time", it can be stopped, it is against the
: rules,people do mind it, and professionalism doesn't come into it...apart from
: that I agree with you Smile
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: :
: : That is exactly the point.
: :
: : Similarly you've probably never seen somebody disqualified from a
: tournament
: : for the kind of benign 'friendly play' that I'm talking about.
: :
: : It happens all the time, it would be impossible to enforce a strict rule
: : against it, most people don't mind it, even though it is unprofessional.
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : Never seen this enforced on ultimatebet tho..
: : :
: : : : It is actually specifically against the rules on many poker sites
: : (ultimate
: : : : bet for example).
: : : :
: : : :
: : : : Dylan
: : :
:
redsimon
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:29 pm
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Not sure what point you're now trying to make...

I think we agree cheating is wrong, we just disagree on whether there is a difference between soft cheating and hard cheating I guess.

I think Peter B summed it up a lot better than I can...

This is boosting my posts total though!
Smile Smile

--Previous Message--

: How many times have you seen some old bloke play differently against a woman
: player, maybe trying to chat her up on the side. This is the same level of
: cheating. What rule would this fall under? How would you go about enforcing it?
: Would you want to bother?
:


_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

redsimon
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 724

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:47 pm
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: Anyway, thanks for taking my speeding thing out of context, useful tool of
: argument that.


Well make a stupid comment..get a facetious response Smile
_________________
[color=red:1234567890]"I've a straight! Look 7 8 9 T...hmmm, damn"

2004 WSOP PLO winner Ted Lawson shows his board reading skills[/color:1234567890]

MattJ
Straight


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:40 pm
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Bizarrely enough i think you've got it all wrong. I in no way condone any form of team play and would never participate in such activities. (I actually find that if i play in a comp with friends we tend to become quite competitive and do the best we can to knock each other out or at least last longer etc. We find it an enjoyable aspect of the game).

However, if you do see your mate short stacked at the final table, you yourself relieving him of his chips is probably the best play you could make in terms of your combined EV.

Say you are in a NLH tourney, final table and your mate is short stacked (just a little more than 1 set of blinds) with 8 players left. Realistically he has to get VERY lucky to make the top 2 or three where the real money is. His chips are better added to your stack if you are in a middling chip position. Even an extra round/ two rounds of blinds can make a significant difference to a middling stack. Thus if you eliminate your mate, you have an much improved shot at a top two finish and his monetary loss is not too bad ( the difference between 6th 7th 8th and 9th is usually small cf. the difference between 1st 2nd & 3rd vs the rest). Hence your mate goes all in, you should move over the top with any half decent hand to isolate him (usually a move you can get away with, but be careful). Then you either double him up or add to your stack. Passing when you might have called to go easy on your mate is just the WRONG move.

I have considered the situation, but i must stress that i considerany such team plays as cheating and would be appalled if one of my mates treated me any differently to any other player based purely on the fact that we are friends.

Recently i have started taking my girlfriend to some tournies. We have never yet been drawn on the same table. She is very upset at this. It seems her current poker ambition is to bust me out of a tourney Smile

MattJ

-Previous Message--

: I knew there'd be responses condemning what I said. I'm just trying to be
: honest to somebody who might wonder what kind of 'cooperation' goes on in
: tournaments.
:
: Everyone knows this behaviour exists in cardrooms but I think it's important
: to distinguish between the malevolent kind such as the situation described in
: the original post, and situations I would consider harmless: you fold a hand
: pre-flop that you normally wouldn't because your mate raised a few seats to your
: right, he's shortstacked and you don't want to knock him out.
:
: In the latter situation it could be said that the perpetrator is the victim of
: his own actions. I don't consider this a serious breach of the rules but I admit
: its very unprofessional.
:
: I'll give an example from a tournament I played in Dublin a few months ago. I
: was at a table where there were two brothers at opposite ends of the table. One
: takes a big hit and is left with very few chips, only slightly more than one BB.
: He shoves them all in preflop next hand, and its folded round to his brother on
: the BB who thinks briefly and folds despite the fact that he was getting
: monstrous pot odds to call against an all-in player.
:
: Were the cries of disgust and demands for justice heard from the other
: players? No. I'd probably have done the same in the situation. Though this is
: cooperative behaviour (not collusive mind) I wouldn't classify it as dispicable
: cheating.
:
: Anyone agree? Cast the stones...
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: : I think a certain level of "friendly betting" is actually in the essence of
: : the game, at the level of 20 quid tournaments and the like.
: :
: : We all do it to an extent. If I'm at a final table in a casino and so is my
: : mate, I'd prefer not to knock him out. If I was a professional player my
: : attitude would be different, but I'm not. I play mostly for enjoyment
: rather
: : than to earn a living, and I suspect many others here do too.
: :
: : Obviously its a grey area when "friendly betting" constitutes implied
: : collusion and this may have been the case in your example, I'm not condoning
: 5
: : home players ganging up on one fresh face. I just think that a certain
: amount of
: : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players
: check
: : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: :
: : Dylan
: :
: :
: : --Previous Message--
: :
: : : I'm not sure whether the phenomenon that is 'friendly betting' is
: : restricted
: : : to my native north east, I'm sure it's not, but I've never really
: : experienced it
: : : elsewhere.
: : :
: : : Let me give you an example. Earlier this week I'm in the final of a
: comp...
: : I
: : : make good progress and there is me and five others left on the table.
: The
: : five
: : : are friends and it doesn't take me long to notice that they are soft
: : playing
: : : each other... this goes unchecked until I finally feel I have to say
: : something
: : : when two of the players are heads up; one checks their flopped straight
: and
: : the
: : : other checks their trips. I asked if neither liked their hand and they
: : both
: : : gave a slightly embarrassed grin; subsequent hands prove that the
: : embarrassment
: : : makes no difference and on it went.
: : :
: : : The end result is that I was busted out fourth. Probably nothing to do
: : with
: : : the friendly betting but still, it seems to go against the essence of the
: : game.
: : :
: : :
: : : Any thoughts?
: : :


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David Young
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 684

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:54 am
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You were cheated. No doubt about it. The fact is that tournament poker is fundamentally flawed in this respect.

You have not named the individuals or the casino.
Unless you name and shame, this will continue.

Just do it.

DY

--Previous Message--

: No it's cheating, and completely different from checking down vs an all-in
: which is a legtimate and accepted tournament practice.
:
: If I'm allin vs two or more other players with a small or empty sidepot, I
: wouldn't complain if they've checked it down. In fact I would expect it!
:
:
:
: --I just think that a certain amount of
: : friendly play is no more against the essence of the game than when players
: check
: : a board down because a short stack is all-in.
: :
: : Dylan
: :
: :
:
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