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balloo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:26 am
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Ross_PokerPlayerMag wrote:
I just crashed out of the Stars $200k GTD just before the 2nd break but my exit hand was quite interesting.

I had 8,000 at 200/400 a50 and picked up A-K in the SB. MP raises to 1,050 - hes played pretty tight so far.
Obviously all I am thinking about here is the best way to get the money in with my 20BBs. Normally I would shove pf and be happy either being called or just picking up the dead money.

However I thought about it and decided that it would be better to just 3-bet because I actually want a call by inferior hands that I dominate. So, instead I made it 2,975 and was going to ship the rest in on any flop.

Flop was 2-4-6 and I shipped.

Does anyone agree with this thought process or it is always better to just shove it pre? Does the situation change if Im sat with AA or KK?



I like how you played this.

Your hand looks so strong to our opponent, and he is not priced in for any hand.

Provided your shipping in on any flop I like this line.
reevio
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:36 am
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Ross_PokerPlayerMag wrote:

That he sucked out is irrelevant. If I'm shipping 20BBs pf here, I should be doing it with a huge range and not just my good hands. When I pick up a top hand like AK, surely my main aim is to maximise value?


This is a contradiction?? Changing the play when you do get your monster hands makes it a bit obvious. The whole point is that you would make the same move with a big hand.

Otherwise an observant opponent writes "overshove = scared weak hand, smaller 3-bet = monster"

Wink
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Ross_PokerPlayerMag
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:13 am
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s1ngularity wrote:
Matt101 wrote:

ps. wouldn't it have been better to check call the flop when you miss, at least you have a chance of inducing a bluff?

level?


Surely...

Check/calling the flop tells him my hand is AQ or AK. Not only that but when a J/10/Q falls on the turn I'm suddenly not so happy about my hand.

Obv getting it all-in pf is the standard line, I just wanted to see if exploring other options is not always so bad and can actually offer more value.

Reevio, I agree with you saying that my comment was a contradiction, I stated it wrong.

And it's not as if he is forced to call due to the pot odds. He's getting pretty average odds, calling 2k into a pot of 4k. Maybe the hand is wrong because it wouldnt fold out 66-99 which a shove might but I thought it would be cool to test a new way of playing A-K and got the desired result, even if he hit his 3-outer.
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Matt101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:06 am
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Ross_PokerPlayerMag wrote:
s1ngularity wrote:
Matt101 wrote:

ps. wouldn't it have been better to check call the flop when you miss, at least you have a chance of inducing a bluff?

level?


Surely...

Check/calling the flop tells him my hand is AQ or AK. Not only that but when a J/10/Q falls on the turn I'm suddenly not so happy about my hand.


If it's such a bad play how does it give your hand away? Yes you're risking an outdraw but he has a maximum of 6 cards to hit on the turn (I'm not suggesting you check it down to the river). If you can be fairly certain of him pushing (ie aggressive big stack) it's marginally profitable against 6 outs and very profitable against 3 outs.
MattF
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:09 pm
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Ross_PokerPlayerMag wrote:
If I'm shipping 20BBs pf here, I should be doing it with a huge range and not just my good hands.


Yes!!! The first correct thing you've said in this thread. 20 BBs is the perfect resteal stack size and you should indeed be shoving with a wide range. Perhaps the top 1/3 of all hands? Maybe a little more selective against a raiser you think is tight.

Quote:
When I pick up a top hand like AK, surely my main aim is to maximise value?


First of all AK is a difficult hand to maximise value with post-flop when out of position. And in any case the meta-way to maximise value is to embed this hand in your shoving range, not play it differently.
darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:42 pm
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i dont see any problem with this play really. He has represented the possibility of a mid pair like 99 1010 jj. He looks like he may of called to see if an ace comes on the flop. I actually would of expected his hand to be 67 suited etc and him folding or making a hero call on the flop. in that more usual event you would have 6 outs twice or about 25% chance of making your hand.

You have shown massive strength and i think live Up to JJ may be folded(depending on tourny buy in size). I think you would need to be quite specific about villain selection though.

I think open shoving represent very bad returns usually against tight players. Unless you are doing it often enough with steals to warrant it. The tighter they are the less likely they are to call when you are ahead. I don't see a tight player calling with AQ or Aj for all his chips. In this instance any two cards for you do the same. They fold.
If you suspect they might call with AQ then you want to make sure your steals are with live cards so that its a 60 40. You don't want to be stealing with KQ QJ etc as they could be dominated.
phatus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:51 pm
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There are arguements for the way you played it and arguements against. I can't see how anyone can say one is definately better than the other because there are so many variables involved. As long as you're mixing your game up who cares if you reraise or shove.

I love the way you decided he was a tight player and his hand is complete junk and he doesn't fold to your imba scary reraise Laughing .
esswun
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:28 pm
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there is one right way of doing it.
when you are playing against slightly better plays who give you more fold equity --> shove
when you are playing looser ppl 3bet --> shove flop
darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:49 pm
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what are the buy ins for these tournies? i might buy a percentage if they are big enough. let me know/
donkasaurus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:52 pm
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darrensprengers wrote:
what are the buy ins for these tournies? i might buy a percentage if they are big enough. let me know/


If this is the tourney I am thinking of then I don't think that will be neccesary. The Sunday 200k is an $11 buy-in. Having said that they do have other 200k guaranteed tourneys such as a $109 Rebuy etc so I'm not too sure. But often the Sunday one is $11.
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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:54 pm
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donkasaurus wrote:
darrensprengers wrote:
what are the buy ins for these tournies? i might buy a percentage if they are big enough. let me know/


If this is the tourney I am thinking of then I don't think that will be neccesary. The Sunday 200k is an $11 buy-in. Having said that they do have other 200k guaranteed tourneys such as a $109 Rebuy etc so I'm not too sure. But often the Sunday one is $11.


holy cow how many runners does it get?
donkasaurus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:57 pm
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About 20,000 plus runners I think. It's a proper good old fashioned donkament. I don't often play in it myself as I am often working. There's a normally a lot of shoving early on with players adopting the 'go big or go home' approach.
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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:02 pm
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donkasaurus wrote:
About 20,000 plus runners I think. It's a proper good old fashioned donkament. I don't often play in it myself as I am often working. There's a normally a lot of shoving early on with players adopting the 'go big or go home' approach.


An $11 $200,000 garauntee tourny with no overlay. That is truly incredible.

2000 in the money. i would like to play it but its hard to justify it against an hourly cash game rate. You could multi table but i would always be thinking that should be a cash table. lol
donkasaurus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:08 pm
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Yeah it's normally almost 3,000 ITM with about $20k for 1st. For an $11 buy-in it's pretty good value. I think there are also satelites available. But why anyone would want to play a sat into an $11 tourney is quite beyond me. It's not as if it's the Sunday Million.
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phatus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:36 am
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s1ngularity wrote:
there is one right way of doing it.
when you are playing against slightly better plays who give you more fold equity --> shove
when you are playing looser ppl 3bet --> shove flop


I did this on a final table on Sunday. Someone that was playing loose raised from the button and i reraised with Q,J. He called with 10,9. I hit top pair and he hit a straight draw and missed after calling my flop all in. He could easily have hit his draw though or the flop could have been 9 high. If i shoved preflop it's very unlikely he would have called me so i'd have picked up the chips without risking him donking me on the flop. The way it turned out was great but if he had hit top pair etc on the flop and beat me i'd be left thinking i should have just shoved preflop. This is the reason i say there isn't one right way of doing it.
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