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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:08 pm
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Its such bad play by him its unreal. If he thinks he is ahead why not re-raise on the flop. The call shows weakness. He did have a weak hand. Well the queen on the turn has not helped him but it might of helped you. AK, AQ, AJ are all beating him. A9,A8 are losing. A 7 is two pair. A6 and down etc wont call.

The guy is a donkey and you have that information. You are still up i think. Now set about taking his stack off him.

If i was at his table after seeing this the odds are now swung so far into my favor that the 75 will be money well spent. Think of it as a loan you are going to get back with interest.
Ross_PokerPlayerMag
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:47 am
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darrensprengers wrote:
Its such bad play by him its unreal. If he thinks he is ahead why not re-raise on the flop. The call shows weakness. He did have a weak hand. Well the queen on the turn has not helped him but it might of helped you. AK, AQ, AJ are all beating him. A9,A8 are losing. A 7 is two pair. A6 and down etc wont call.

The guy is a donkey and you have that information. You are still up i think. Now set about taking his stack off him.

If i was at his table after seeing this the odds are now swung so far into my favor that the 75 will be money well spent. Think of it as a loan you are going to get back with interest.


I agree it was a poor play on his part. I think with the information I had on him, my call was good and I'm happy that I stuck with my read.

Maybe I should have checked back the turn but the bet was as much to induce a bluff as it was to get value from a draw/worse pair. My general philosophy is not one of pot control but of trying to get max value, even if it is sometimes thin value.
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mrbejam
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:09 pm
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He might think that shoving with A10 here could make AJ AQ and AK fold here if he's even putting you on a hand. In honesty though it seems like he ISNT putting YOU on an ace.
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bergeroo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:48 pm
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I really don't think there's any need to stack off 100xbb here with only top pair and weak kicker, even if you think your opponent is steaming.

All those people who say snap call, please tell me where you play!

Hands like 44, 77, A4, A7, A10, AJ are all well within his range here. Hell if you say there was no three betting preflop then maybe he even flats you preflop with AQ and even AK. And why wouldn't be have called a few quid from the BB to a cut off raise with a hand like Q7, Q4 or 74 suited?

You haven't invested too much in this hand. Without a physical read, I think you just need to fold, move on and catch him when you have a better hand.
le ti ga
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:56 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
I really don't think there's any need to stack off 100xbb here with only top pair and weak kicker, even if you think your opponent is steaming.

All those people who say snap call, please tell me where you play!

Hands like 44, 77, A4, A7, A10, AJ are all well within his range here. Hell if you say there was no three betting preflop then maybe he even flats you preflop with AQ and even AK. And why wouldn't be have called a few quid from the BB to a cut off raise with a hand like Q7, Q4 or 74 suited?

You haven't invested too much in this hand. Without a physical read, I think you just need to fold, move on and catch him when you have a better hand.


Full Tilt Poker.

Wanna play?
omen666
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:20 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
I really don't think there's any need to stack off 100xbb here with only top pair and weak kicker, even if you think your opponent is steaming.

All those people who say snap call, please tell me where you play!

Hands like 44, 77, A4, A7, A10, AJ are all well within his range here. Hell if you say there was no three betting preflop then maybe he even flats you preflop with AQ and even AK. And why wouldn't be have called a few quid from the BB to a cut off raise with a hand like Q7, Q4 or 74 suited?

You haven't invested too much in this hand. Without a physical read, I think you just need to fold, move on and catch him when you have a better hand.
My thoughts exactly. Easy insta fold based on his wide range. Also even though he is steaming he is going to be more likely to try and get his buyin back with a holding
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Nem
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:42 pm
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lols at all the "told you so's" after the horse has bolted.
omen666
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:03 pm
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Nemesis wrote:
lols at all the "told you so's" after the horse has bolted.
Hope you are not referring to me, I was second to respond to this post Wink
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darrensprengers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:51 pm
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bergeroo wrote:
I really don't think there's any need to stack off 100xbb here with only top pair and weak kicker, even if you think your opponent is steaming.

All those people who say snap call, please tell me where you play!

Hands like 44, 77, A4, A7, A10, AJ are all well within his range here. Hell if you say there was no three betting preflop then maybe he even flats you preflop with AQ and even AK. And why wouldn't be have called a few quid from the BB to a cut off raise with a hand like Q7, Q4 or 74 suited?

You haven't invested too much in this hand. Without a physical read, I think you just need to fold, move on and catch him when you have a better hand.


I think you are simply a player that plays his own cards and just goes on how likely he has a better hand.

On your "rationale" you should fold Ak, AJ A10 etc. and you could of saved your 100bb. To be honest i suggest you do that. Any information you would of learned from calling would not be of any benefit to you.

You are missing the key facts.
i) You have a player covered that is prepared to stack on top pair rubbish kicker.
ii) Guy prepared to stack off out of position in the betting
iii) A guy deperate to get unstuck.
iv) A guy prepared to drink while playing

This is not an exact science and you guessing at his range is not really worthwhile. You cant always just fold because they have bet big and assume you got it right.

This is the beauty of poker. He does not realise it but playing like that has probably just cost him his stack. If he does not take the 100 and get up then any good players at the table will make adjustments and its feeding time.

You know what he bets and looks like when he is bluffing, when he has a medium (unsure he is winning) hand. From this i think you can work out what he looks like when he has it. Its game over for him.

As for where do we play. If you can afford to play 5-10 let me know.
bergeroo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:31 pm
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Well firstly, putting people on a range of hands is pretty much what all of the good players do before making their action. The fact that it is not an exact science is exactly why putting someone on a range is so important! So yes I think it is worthwhile.

And I would say going on how likely you or your opponent has a better hand is integral to playing a hand of poker!

I have to say Ace King is a different kettle of fish and maybe I find a call there if I have AK, I'm not sure, but I think I probably do - But certainly not with a9.

You say:

darrensprengers wrote:


i) You have a player covered that is prepared to stack on top pair rubbish kicker.


If you are calling off all your chips with a9 and no redraw, then that is you also my friend! In fact, he is getting his money all in first with ace middling kicker and you are the one that's calling!

And finally, so yes if you call and you see his hand, yes you've just paid 100xBB for some good information and physical tells.

If this was a heads up game then that's totally different as it is you who will get it back.

It may be game over for him, but as this is a full ring game, it is much more likely than not that it is someone else that is going to be the one who will bust him, especially as he is seated to your left and money generally flows clockwise. 100xBB is a lot for some info in a full ring game!

darrensprengers wrote:


I think you are simply a player that plays his own cards and just goes on how likely he has a better hand.

On your "rationale" you should fold Ak, AJ A10 etc. and you could of saved your 100bb. To be honest i suggest you do that. Any information you would of learned from calling would not be of any benefit to you.

You are missing the key facts.

i) You have a player covered that is prepared to stack on top pair rubbish kicker.
ii) Guy prepared to stack off out of position in the betting
iii) A guy deperate to get unstuck.
iv) A guy prepared to drink while playing

This is not an exact science and you guessing at his range is not really worthwhile. You cant always just fold because they have bet big and assume you got it right.

This is the beauty of poker. He does not realise it but playing like that has probably just cost him his stack. If he does not take the 100 and get up then any good players at the table will make adjustments and its feeding time.

You know what he bets and looks like when he is bluffing, when he has a medium (unsure he is winning) hand. From this i think you can work out what he looks like when he has it. Its game over for him.

As for where do we play. If you can afford to play 5-10 let me know.
Alex B
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:39 pm
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Only skimmed the thread so someone might have said this, but given the dry board and way-ahead way behind type of hand this discussion should have happened BEFORE you bet the turn.

I either like my hand and bet-get-it-in on the turn, or know its a bet -fold because he'll try to call down with weaker aces and raise better, or...

If I'm not sure either way (probably often the case), I check back the turn and make this lie-detection decision for a less significant amount of money on the river.
Ray Cake
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:05 pm
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I`ve learnt so much from this thread
le ti ga
Trips


Joined: 17 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:15 pm
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Alex B wrote:
Only skimmed the thread so someone might have said this, but given the dry board and way-ahead way behind type of hand this discussion should have happened BEFORE you bet the turn.

I either like my hand and bet-get-it-in on the turn, or know its a bet -fold because he'll try to call down with weaker aces and raise better, or...

If I'm not sure either way (probably often the case), I check back the turn and make this lie-detection decision for a less significant amount of money on the river.


Finally someone who has a clue. And that is the reason it's a snap call once you've bet.
balloo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:24 am
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Why did you bet the turn if your worried about him shoving?
Ross_PokerPlayerMag
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:45 am
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balloo wrote:
Why did you bet the turn if your worried about him shoving?


I was pretty shocked when he shoved. I was betting the turn 100% for value.

My initial instinct was to fold to the shove but it was his physical actions mixed with the seemingly unlikely combos of 2-pairs (I had ruled out a set from his range here) that made me call.

My range for him was a weaker ace, A-10, A-J, 5-6 for the straight draw or an unlikely pair of Q's that picked up a flush draw.

Is a better line to check the turn and bet the river for value if he checks to me? I don't think betting for value is too thin here.
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