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Mark S.
Full House


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1428

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:51 pm
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For many years now I've played online poker, as I'm sure 99% of readers of this forum has.

In all those years playing I've won & lost but never made a consistent profit, as I'm sure 99% of readers of this forum have not. The question is...WHY?

There have been thousands of posts in hundreds of forums about IF on-line poker is rigged in some way. Well as a person that understands how on-line poker is put together I honestly believe that it IS and here I'll explain as to WHY I believe this!

Lets start with the basics...

Online Poker is a COMPUTER PROGRAM.

Whereas in 'live-play' true randomness is achieved in poker as cards have no memory in the world of computer programs randomness cannot be achieved as the computer KNOWS what has happened once any card is dealt.

e.g In live play a dealer deals you an Ace of Clubs as your first card. The 2nd card you receive will be absolutely random (in fair play) as the cards themselves have no clue as to what your first card was. In computer play the computer KNOWS that the first card you received was the Ace of Clubs (as it needs to know for determining the winning & losing hands) and so therefore the computer program has knowledge of your hand.

In any online game therefore there are PROCESSES designed by humans that allow for winners & losers to be determined. In order for there to be a winner then there has to be a loser.

So how do we make a winner?

In my opinion winners are designated at the time the deal commences. Of course the ACTUAL winner may not be the one that was pre-designated as human actions may, or may not, help to ensure that this is the case but in general I believe this to be the case.

Processes programmed in are sometimes farily obvious in the way they are achieved. Hands like KK v AA will 99 times out a 100 initiate player reaction where all the money is in the middle at SOME STAGE during hand play whereas if you're given a hand like Q-2 then its 99% likely that you'll be folding.

This is also true of live-play and because of this owners and software developers can always state that 'thats poker' and thats the way it is...but is it?

Of course winners in general need to be identified as such and to the system they're possibly flagged by way of a rating system which allows players to be recognised as a 'winner' or a 'loser'.

Rating systems may work as follows:

Winners-> New player, regular player (daily)
Losers -> Just cashed out, irregular player

Between the player types of winners & losers there are those catagories that most of us fall into and that is one of neither winner nor loser to such a degree as we'd care too much about!

With a rating in place for every player on site then the software can ensure that winners are those players that are 'supposed' to win. After all...winning players have more money to play with and therefore have more chance of being involved of raked games.

Remember...online poker operators are in business to make money. What costs them money is withdrawals and they discourage withdrawals as much as possible by ensuring that you do it as little as often!

As software has become more sophisticated then the games you're playing on-line become ever more experienced in determining who should win and who should lose.

If you doubt any of this to be untrue I offer you the following experiment...

1) join a COMPLETELY NEW on-line poker site with $100
2) Cash out when you get to $500 (as you undoubtedly will)
3) redeposit $100
4) see how quick you lose it!

Questions welcome!
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Mark S. - Read all about my 'live' poker exploits and other ramblings:
http://ukpokerukpoker.blogspot.com/ or
http://ukpoker61.blogspot.com/

**New** http://ukpoker-vendeep1.blogspot.com
RobGibraltar
Out to Lunch


Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 7842
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:56 pm
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Mark, I think this is utter rubbish. I had to get that in now, I'll write a fuller post in a few minutes after I've decided whether to laugh or despair.

They haven't shiftedapril fools day to now have they?
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balloo
Full House


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 1195

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:04 pm
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Honestly Mark you are just not a good enough player to be an online winner. Run me through the following...

Do you have pokertracker?
Do you have a stockpile of notes on your opponents?
Do you study sessions regularly to analyse your game?
What changes have you made to your game in the past year to keep thinking one step ahead of your opponents?
Have you stuck to one game or have you floated between a number of different games (cash,mtts,sit and gos)?
Do you ever post hands to friends for them to give you advice?
Do you only ever play focused without distractions?

If you are doing all of these I will be amazed. The above is part of what it takes to be a great online poker player. If you are not doing at least five of these on a session to session basis your game will be quite a considerable way behind your opponents. This is whats making you a losing player, not some conspiracy theory.


This thread is a complete embarrassment.
Mark S.
Full House


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1428

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:08 pm
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Balloo,

Its a shame you're not privvy to the information I have.

Wake up & smell the coffee!
_________________
Mark S. - Read all about my 'live' poker exploits and other ramblings:
http://ukpokerukpoker.blogspot.com/ or
http://ukpoker61.blogspot.com/

**New** http://ukpoker-vendeep1.blogspot.com
OwenP
Straight Flush


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 4424

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:08 pm
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Mark S. wrote:

Whereas in 'live-play' true randomness is achieved in poker as cards have no memory in the world of computer programs randomness cannot be achieved as the computer KNOWS what has happened once any card is dealt.

e.g In live play a dealer deals you an Ace of Clubs as your first card. The 2nd card you receive will be absolutely random (in fair play) as the cards themselves have no clue as to what your first card was. In computer play the computer KNOWS that the first card you received was the Ace of Clubs (as it needs to know for determining the winning & losing hands) and so therefore the computer program has knowledge of your hand.


I stopped reading here because, as someone who writes computer programs, I can tell you know absolutely nothing about how they work.

Also, I apparently make more money online than you do.
balloo
Full House


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 1195

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:10 pm
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Mark S. wrote:
Balloo,

Its a shame you're not privvy to the information I have.

Wake up & smell the coffee!



Answer my questions Mark and I will engage a bit of serious discussion. Are you doing all of the above to improve?
Desert_Orchid
Quads


Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 2193
Location: n/a

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:12 pm
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In terms of hilarity only the Nick S welching theread comes close to this imo.
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Patsy A
One Pair


Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:13 pm
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donkasaurus
Flush


Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 738
Location: Newbury

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:14 pm
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A computer program only responds to set instructions though. Also the program needs to know what has happened when each card is dealt in order to determine the ultimate winner at the end of the hand if it goes to showdown. If it was unable to determine this then the program just would not work. Therefore I would presume that in order to aid this process it needs to keep track of the current 'winner and loser' at each stage of the hand to ensure that errors are not made.

To say that the program is corrupted in order to 'ensure' there is always a winning and losing hand is absurd. I've played many hands myslef on-line where the hand is tied.

Ultimatley there will always have to be a winner and a loser. The program only responds to what has been asked of it. The end result is up to the players.

Also the program needs to record what has happened in each hand to allow support etc to investigate allegations of collusion, cheating etc. (See Absolute Poker scandal).

I doubt that the program itself would use this information against players though. Not only would this be unethical imo but also it would become obvious to the user after a while of seeing very similiar thins happening to them on a regular basis.

I also don't believe this to be true on the basis that computer programmers on the whole are quite ethical people.

Remember. A computer is only as intelligent as the user.

I think owenP would probably be able to argue it better than I have here though tbh.

Therefore: Online Poker Is Not Rigged!
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OwenP
Straight Flush


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 4424

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:14 pm
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Patsy A wrote:


Invisible horse.
Mark S.
Full House


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1428

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:17 pm
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Balloo,

I don't mind you, or anyone, disagreeing with what I have written. After all its a free world.

Would you agree or disagree that a computer can write random numbers?

Would you agree or disagree that computer programs are written to do a specific thing?

Would you agree that in order to do the specific thing that in order to achieve the desired results certain 'criteria' needs to be agreed upon?

If you DISAGREE with any of the above statements then please explain why?
_________________
Mark S. - Read all about my 'live' poker exploits and other ramblings:
http://ukpokerukpoker.blogspot.com/ or
http://ukpoker61.blogspot.com/

**New** http://ukpoker-vendeep1.blogspot.com
OwenP
Straight Flush


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 4424

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:20 pm
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donkasaurus wrote:
Therefore I would presume that in order to aid this process it needs to keep track of the current 'winner and loser' at each stage of the hand to ensure that errors are not made.


It only needs to check the winning hand at showdown, as it's irrelevant who has the best hand during play and checking then would just be a waste of computation.

If Mark geniunely believes that poker sites are working out who has what hand and then dealing out cards to rig it, then just look at how many hands are in progress at any one time, and you will see that the extra overhead of all these calculations would be ridiculous. At least the slightly less disillusioned people who believe in 'action flops' realised this.
balloo
Full House


Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 1195

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:22 pm
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Mark S. wrote:
Balloo,

I don't mind you, or anyone, disagreeing with what I have written. After all its a free world.

Would you agree or disagree that a computer can write random numbers?

Would you agree or disagree that computer programs are written to do a specific thing?

Would you agree that in order to do the specific thing that in order to achieve the desired results certain 'criteria' needs to be agreed upon?

If you DISAGREE with any of the above statements then please explain why?



You are a losing player, not because of some conspiracy theory, but because your not good enough and dont adapt. Or you are not disciplined enough in your play and game selection.

Why would they rig online poker sites? Why is it that these "winning players" online are able to take their game into a live arena from a very young age and continue their success? Do the casino rig their seat? No its because they work hard to be the very best and they do everything they can to improve their game. Your blaming a conspiracy theory for your own shortcomings.
Nem
Royal Flush


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 17557

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:23 pm
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balloo wrote:
Mark S. wrote:
Balloo,

I don't mind you, or anyone, disagreeing with what I have written. After all its a free world.

Would you agree or disagree that a computer can write random numbers?

Would you agree or disagree that computer programs are written to do a specific thing?

Would you agree that in order to do the specific thing that in order to achieve the desired results certain 'criteria' needs to be agreed upon?

If you DISAGREE with any of the above statements then please explain why?



You are a losing player, not because of some conspiracy theory, but because your not good enough and dont adapt. Or you are not disciplined enough in your play and game selection.

Why would they rig online poker sites? Why is it that these "winning players" online are able to take their game into a live arena from a very young age and continue their success? Do the casino rig their seat? No its because they work hard to be the very best and they do everything they can to improve their game. Your blaming a conspiracy theory for your own shortcomings.


Amen.
gandalf55
Wizard


Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 2552
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:29 pm
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I must admit I didn't make it to the end of the original post, but from what I read.......................WHAT UTTER DRIVEL!!!

I'm miles behind a lot of the contributors here both experience and skill-wise, but somehow have managed to cobble a profit together every year since I started playing online.
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